Seeing as how you wouldn't play it like -this- how would you play it?

ElSapo · #1 03-31-2004, 06:38 PM

Party Poker 2/4 (9 handed)
Hero has 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and is SB

MP3 limps, Button limps, Hero limps, BB checks

Flop(4 SB): 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I checked, looking to check-raise. But then the BB bet and everyone called and I aborted. Should've bet out?

Hero checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, Hero calls

Turn(4 BB): 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, Button folds, Hero calls

Another opportunity to do something besides call. And...no. I decided to check-raise if everyone folded to me, and when MP called I just called.

River(7 BB): Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets...

Now I bet. Makes no sense.

Tosh · #2 03-31-2004, 06:56 PM

With a flop like this, risking a free card is too dangerous. Especially as a bet on a raggedy flop isn't always likely.

sthief09 · #3 03-31-2004, 07:06 PM

this is just one of those hands where you feel completely lost the whole time, and after the hand you just stop and think "what just happened?" I know how you feel, and it's always a result of trying to get too fancy. some thoughts:

- with top pair of 6's, you really can't check the flop unless you're trying to gain information, because if it gets checked through, you gave everyone a free card to beat a pair of 6's. however, if you're doing it for information, then when it gets back to you, you've gotten some pretty bad information, as far as your hand goes.

- I think you should either fold or raise the flop after you checked. folding is definitely a reasonable choice. you likely won't win unimproved, and you aren't getting odds to play for a 6, A, or running diamonds. the pot is small, and you might end up putting in much more of an investmen than you originally planned. I DON'T advocate raising.

- since you decided to call the flop (which I consider a mistake) I think you need to bet out. if you get raised you can safely fold, as you are likely against a straight or 2 pair. the problem with checking is that you leave yourself in the EXACT same situation as on the flop, only with much worse odds, and without top pair, and with a highly coordinated board for no PF raise

- let's say BB turned a straight. now you've done what you could've done on the turn, except you already invested 1 BB calling, and are going to fold

I'm curious: if you could do this hand all over again, what would you do?

personally, I check with the intention of raising a LP bettor, and folding if there is a bet and a call. even if you are ahead, you can be drawn out against easily, and you have very little information, so you can't be sure you're ahead. if it got checked through, then I'll bet into the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the turn, hoping to take it down. if I got raised, I'd fold. if I got called, I'd check-call the river

this is one of those hands where I think weak-tight is the best play

ElSapo · #4 03-31-2004, 07:19 PM

Hey Thief...

The problem, as someone pointed out, is that I've got no gaurantee that the button will bet it (or MP). So, while I like check-raising to clear out overcards, of which there are many, no gaurantee this will work. I like the CR idea, but as the other poster (and you?) noted, and as it played out, the bet may not come from the right place.

That said.

I'd probably bet the flop if I had to do it again. Bet and hope for folds. Because, really, there isn't a whole lot of cards I want to see. An ace or a six, sure, and certain diamonds, but really, if I could win with a bet that's optimal.

However.

This is Party 2/4 and if people have overcards (and they have to have them), they will call. So then I'm faced with not liking a whole lot of cards and not knowing whether or not to check-fold or bet-fold-to-a-raise, or what.

Even the bet and fold line is suspect because JK may call the flop, hit a king, and his logic goes, "why does this fool keep betting? Can he beat a king? I better just call."

So, yeah, while these players never win the maximum you'll end up paying two bets instead of one to see what they hit.

So really, it's a positional thing. I'm in the SB and so the hand, vulnerable as it is, is difficult to play. The optimal play here, I suspect, is convincing the button to swap seats for this hand.

Anyways, the seven comes on the turn and then I should bet. As cards go, that one is pretty safe. Aside from a card directly helping my hand, that 7 was a pretty good card. And still I check-call, though heads-up I'd have check-raised.

The river bet was just weird. I was prepared to fold to a raise, but that doesn't seem to make the play better.

In the end, they both folded, so it worked ok but I think the hand is so difficult b/c so many turn and river cards will look ugly and I'm out of position.

I think betting out is probably the best option here, unless the button types in the chat box "I'm betting the flop." In retrospect, I'd say a whole lot of lines are better than check/call-check/call-bet. Maybe all of them, in fact, including folding to no bet, which everyone in all of the "worst play ever" threads seems to consider the worst. This one may have been worse. I know it didn't feel rights anyways.

ElSapo

Trix · #5 03-31-2004, 07:27 PM

I think that what should make you want to bet out on this flop is that you really dont wanna see it checked through.
The pot is also small, so you dont need to cut down peoples odds.

Tosh · #6 03-31-2004, 07:39 PM

I'll go as far as to say check raising is definitely wrong. I'd be interested in hearing an argument in favour of it though...

Trix · #7 03-31-2004, 07:49 PM

I think its ok if Button or MP is one of them players who always bets when checked to on the flop.

Tosh · #8 03-31-2004, 07:55 PM

Yes but no reads are given, so how can we assume that ?

Trix · #9 03-31-2004, 08:05 PM

You wanted an argument for check-raising, so I gave one. Without reads I would also bet this flop every time.

Trix · #10 03-31-2004, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
personally, I check with the intention of raising a LP bettor, and folding if there is a bet and a call. even if you are ahead, you can be drawn out against easily, and you have very little information, so you can't be sure you're ahead. if it got checked through, then I'll bet into the 7 on the turn, hoping to take it down. if I got raised, I'd fold. if I got called, I'd check-call the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought checking for information was for weaker hands. Checking this flop with intention of folding to a bet and a call seems like very weak tight poker to me, when playing against average 2/4 players.