Any thoughts on the Bertuzzi mess?

[bugstud]

Pretty sickening video clip

[HDPM]

Yeah, I watched the stories on it for a while last night. I have always been a firm believer in fighting in hockey. Many times a game is going out of control and a fight takes care of things. Sounds strange to encourage fighting, but the stuff that goes on now is pretty bad. One problem is that Moore I don't think is a physical player, but I don't follow the avalanche closely enough to know. So he wears a visor. So is less likely to fight. And more likely to get a ridiculous shot like the one bertuzzi did. But the visor is protecting guys so it is hard to rail against them even though for years I thought visor wearers should have to wear a skirt and not be allowed to check anybody. The worst were guys like claude lemieux who wore the visor and were cheap shot artists.

Anyway, I saw the replay of the hit that moore put on naslund. Not all that bad. So then vancouver puts a bouty on him. And then they put perhaps the cheapest and most dangerous shot on him imaginable. Driving a guys head into the ice like that was awful. ANd bertuzzi started hitting him when he was out cold with a broken neck. That was pretty bad. Even significantly worse then what mcsorley did.

Given the fact there was a bounty on moore and the nature of the hit, I would hammer bertuzzi if I were the NHL commissioner. And I like hockey fights. I'd give him the rest of the season and all the playoffs off. Any partial season after the lockout off. And one year after that. Because of the bounty vancouver would pay damages to moore. If he can't return, vancouver would write him a check for his career. And forfeit their #1 picks for a while. If I had the power to do so. The bounty talk was terrible.

[Gamblor]

I watched the game on CBC, so I can put it in some context for those who don't get it.

Last month, in an earlier Colorado/Vancouver tilt, Steve Moore hit Markus Naslund, the Canucks' Captain and arguably their best player, in open ice. He's in the upper echelon of the NHL's elite scorers. Naslund left that game with a concussion and did not return for two weeks.

Todd Bertuzzi plays with Naslund on the Canucks' highest scoring line and on the power play. He's a 6'4", 240-odd pound behemoth with incredible hands, a hard, accurate shot, and the propensity to get his nose dirty as well, and as such is one of those players in the game that every team wants and no team ever parts with. He's also the policeman, protecting Naslund (and to a lesser extent, Brendan Morrison) on the ice so opposing players don't take "liberties" with the top scorer.

So in a return trip to Vancouver, after the Moore-Naslund incident, Colorado is up 8-2 in the 3rd period, and outright humiliating the team they are fighting for first place in the Western Conference. As is usually the case when a team is getting humiliated and has no hope to come back, they have to both save a little face and send a message for the next game, that they won't just roll over like that again. Incidentally, this is why coaches often tell their players not to embarrass another team by scoring goals even after its in the bag - it's unsportsmanlike, and people don't like getting embarrassed. So first Rob Ray tries to get his team going and picks a fight with Peter Worrell.

After 3 separate stoppages for fights, including a couple line brawls, Bertuzzi has had enough and decides to finish the Steve Moore issue with an old-fashioned tilt. Unfortunately, Moore knows he's dead if he drops his gloves, so he chickens out. If you think someone deserves an ass-whupping, there's nothing more frustrating than if he won't stand up and fight you fair and square.

So Bertuzzi went temporarily insane.

Now, I don't say that this is okay, but this is why it happened. Todd has a lot of respect (which is obviously now gone), and for what it's worth, he has called Moore in the hospital to apologize. People can't possibly understand what it's like in the middle of a hockey game. There's simply no logical thought until you're on the bench after a shift. They always say, if you have to think you're already beaten. It's pure emotion once the puck is dropped, and if the skills and plays aren't already ingrained, then you're hopeless.

I wonder if this is a primal response to aggression from days when some animal or human or whatever threatened you in some way. Pride I'm sure is a defense mechanism in that way. But I digress.

Did Bertuzzi mean to try and kill Steve Moore? Not a chance. Does Bertuzzi deserve a significant suspension? Well, considering the number of punches to the back of the head during random scrums after the whistle, which happen at least once a game, it would appear otherwise. Yet, the severity of Moore's injury, which I regard as more a fluke due to the position in which he fell, would imply that a huge suspension is deserved.

Incidentally, does this mean that it is the results of the crime, and not the intention behind it that determines the severity of the punishment? Does this mean, if I shoot a gun to try to kill two people, and one dies but the other receives only a flesh wound, I deserve a lesser sentence for the second shooting?

This is nothing compared to the Marty McSorley/Donald Brashear incident, in which McSorley swung his stick and hit Brashear in the head. The stick is a tool, not a weapon, and any use of the stick in any manner outside of shooting, stickhandling, and defence, must be banned and penalized. A punch to the back of the head is not even close.

It does show one point I've been making for months on 2+2:

Events we witness are invariably started long long ago. Nothing significant happens overnight. The way the world works, is someone starts pushing envelopes until people get used to it, it becomes accepted, and then someone pushes it a little more. And the cycle continues.

Little girls suddenly don't decide they want to dress as sluts because of Britney Spears, it's a slow process that went through hundreds of years of showing more and more skin, challenging authority. And nobody woke up in the middle of the night and shouted "Democracy!" And anti-semitism started long before the Holocaust - it started with accusations of deicide, then came second-class status, then the Protocols, then the pogroms, and finally attempted genocide. (that was my argument in the Passion thread - that it would set the ball rolling, not necessarily cause some crackpot to kill Jews and quote the movie.)

Incidentally, what do you think the implications of this are? What is the end-game?

And as such, even the most anti-Todd Bertuzzi fan can understand that he didn't simply decide to try to kill Steve Moore, and as such, he should not be crucified. He does not have a significant history of this behaviour and the incident should be compared to a manslaughter charge, not a murder charge. Both teams are equally culpable for escalating the situation, but only Bertuzzi ought to be held responsible for his actions.

The British Columbia police have every right to investigate, and a hockey player is not exempt from the law just because he is a hockey player. But the context of the incident MUST be taken into account. My guess is they'll leave it alone. The NHL will [censored] up their own ruling somehow. That's the only sure thing.

[Gamblor]

Incidentally, the only real problems I have with visors are as follows:

1) If you're going to fight, you take off your helmet first. In lacrosse (real, Canadian, BOX lacrosse), all players wear full cages, and if there's a fight, they both give each other a second to take off the mask so nobody breaks their hand.

2) Among the few players I've met who don't wear visors, they often mention that they are much more careful with their sticks, simply because they know they're dangerous and they want others to act the same. When players nowadays are dressed like gladiators with all of the equipment, why worry about carrying your stick at face level? Guys are more willing to throw their bodies around and slash and hack because everyone has 20 lbs of gear on. It is the guys who are most protected who are most careless with their sticks. Claude Lemieux was your picture perfect example.

My solution? Ban helmets. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[HDPM]

Yeah, hockey is emotional;. I never played anywhere close to top level hockey, but I played some. And I cheap shotted people. But there is no way you get so out of it that you do what bertuzzi did. Even taking a run at somebody you have control. I saw the mcsorley thing again last night and what bertuzzi did was much worse. As bad as using a stick as a weapon is, it is a lot easier to maim or kill a guy doing what bertuzzi did. He came down on his head and neck with his weight. That is how you kill guys in a fight, break their neck, etc....

Moore should have stepped up and fought. Hell, he wears a visor. Throw a couple shots and wrestle a while. The refs would break it up. One on one fights are no big deal usually. But moore being a wimp doesn't excuse what happened.

I kind of agree on the helmet thing. Guys are doing things they shouldn't. But helmets on balance are good. I just think they need to allow some fights (with penalties of course) but be very hard on the stick work and other things.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think the hit was sick, just like Rudy T getting blindsided, or when Sapp blindsided that guy on the packers(name?? ) away from the play. Only pussies punch someone from behind.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I played the game through college, so I understand the emotional part. Nobody ever snuck up behind me and punched me, but that's just because I was a goalie. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I do think this was close to the McSorley hit, though. Not the punch, the driving of Moore's head into the ice.

I say give him a year. What's the difference? There won't be a NHL season next year, anyway.

[HDPM]

Bertuzzis deal was orders of magnitude worse than Sapp's hit. There is no comparison.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

just like Rudy T getting blindsided

Whoah. Talk about revisionist history. Rudy T did not get blindsided. Kermit Washington was already fighting with one of Rudy's teammates. Rudy ran at Washington from behind. Washington saw someone coming at him out of the corner of his eye, spun around and threw a punch. True the punch landed flush and Rudy T landed face first on the floor and needed extensive reconstruction of his face, but he was the aggressor.

The Celtics later picked up Kermit, and with him and Dave Cowens on the floor, nobody picked a fight with that team.

[ThaSaltCracka]

I will clarify, it was a savage a hit as those two other ones. Probably even worse given the fact that he drove his head into the ice, or atleast looks like he did.
I think Bertuzzi is going to be a marked man for many seasons to come.