Seeing the flop

[colos1]

What % of seeing the flop would you say is "just right"
What is generally considered being to tigh or to loose?

[SpaceAce]

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What % of seeing the flop would you say is "just right"

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There is no such thing, at least not as a raw percentage. Chances are if you're seeing 40% of flops or 5% of flops, you're not playing an optimal style but it's all situational.

SpaceAce

[Ken Morris]

Over about 35,000 hand in 1/2 and 3/6 on Party, I am seeing 31% of flops, with a win rate of 28% where I see the flop. This has yielded about 2 SB/Hr., which I don't think is too bad for a player with less than 1 yr. experience. I play pretty much "by the book" (i.e. HPFAP - "Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players"), and my percentages are consistent with my "loose game" analysis, using Bob Wilson's Turbo Texas Hold'em software (a great tool).

[Saborion]

You see about 31 % of the flops at 3/6? I know I'm tight, but am I THAT tight? I'm at about 10.6 %. I think it's a bit too tight, but not sure what hands to start playing more.

[Ken Morris]

Thanks for the reply (my first on this site). In addition to HPFAP, I think Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'em" is an excellent source for starting hand theory.

IMO, for what it's worth, you are missing some +EV opportunities at 10.6%. On the other hand, you are staying out of trouble. The problem I ran into playing really tight is that I didn't get much action, especially when I came in raising. It was really annoying to raise with AA in MP after a couple of limpers, and end up playing a 3-way pot for one bet on the flop, and not much more.

I don't think it's so much that they (the fish) "fear" a tight player. Rather, it's the idea that a tight player doesn't "play fair," meaning, he doesn't "gamble." Doyle Brunson talks about this in Super/System. You've got to give action to get action. Playing really tight works only if the fish "forget" your image after every pot you play.

[el_grande]

I have the same win rate, but I only see 20% of flops.

My variance is probably smaller than someone who sees 31%, which is a plus.

[Norm]

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The problem I ran into playing really tight is that I didn't get much action, especially when I came in raising. It was really annoying to raise with AA in MP after a couple of limpers, and end up playing a 3-way pot for one bet on the flop, and not much more.

I don't think it's so much that they (the fish) "fear" a tight player. Rather, it's the idea that a tight player doesn't "play fair," meaning, he doesn't "gamble." Doyle Brunson talks about this in Super/System. You've got to give action to get action. Playing really tight works only if the fish "forget" your image after every pot you play.

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I have run into this problem of people (even fish) refusing me action. To solve it I change tables every 30 minutes or so (it takes a while for them to figure me out) and I play tables with several semi-aggressive players and a bunch of callers so that I can lay back with my monsters and monster draws until the pot is too big for them to surrender.

Is this approach correct, or is there a better way to do it? This doesn't sound like aggressive poker - am I weak-tight here?

[Ken Morris]

I like your approach, Norm. It's especially effective on Party, where you've got so many players/tables to choose from. If the cards start running badly for you, you can drop down to 2/4 for a while, and find a whole bunch more "new faces." That's something a B&M player can't do easily.

The downside, I think, is that it's tougher for you to get a read on a table. You are a new arrival much of the time.

[Saborion]

Atm I'm at 1.97 BB/Hr. at the 3/6 limit with 19x hours logged. Yes, I know I'm missing some hands. As I said, not sure which hands that would be though. Especially now that the 3/6 have tighten up quite a bit compared to a month ago.