Preflop check - Offsuit connecters/1-Gabs in the BB when its raised.

[Trix]

I usually just muck unless its gonna be 5-6 Handed and I dont fear a reraise. I feel that might be a little tight though.

Here is a hand to get the discussion started

Party Poker 2/4 Hold 'Em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero ?

Here are some numbers:

With JT-54 offsuit, it's a little better than 7.5-1 that you'll flop either a straight or 8 out straight draw. With QT-53 offsuit, it's 10.65-1 against flopping a straight or 8 out straight draw.

[Joe Tall]

Fold.

You know that I know that we all know that QJo sucks.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[asdf1234]

QJo out of position is likely to get you into trouble.

[Dylan Wade]

You're looking at it the wrong way. Sure the hand will hit draws every so often, and that might justify a small +EV call. I'll take your word for that. However, consider that you're facing a passive raise from someone who has position on you + several limpers.

The first, obvious problem is that you're facing a raiser with a trouble hand, out of position. This effecly kills any chance that you can play a pair of Jacks or Queens.

Even if you were to simply "fit or fold" (looking for twopair, straightdraw,etc) on the flop due to the sheer pot odds, remember that your position with respect to the raiser is such that you won't get much value out of your hand when you hit (i.e. you can't trap players for multiple bets).

So, your implied odds on a straight are shot, and, of course, pairs are unplayable. Your post flop experience will be miserable if you call. I don't care about the 1 SB extra bet pre-flop. You can give that to the dealer for all I care. The problem is you're going to lose a lot post flop.


Oh and by the way.... you can't use pot odds here to justify calling looking for a DRAW. You gotta figure the odds that actually make a complete straight... not a straight draw. Or, even better, the odds that you make a complete straight that was born out of a flopped draw.

[Haupt_234]

You don't really need any numbers in this situation. You will have 4 callers in a raised pot, max.

Fold it and forget it.

Haupt_234

[Trix]

"You gotta figure the odds that actually make a complete straight... not a straight draw. Or, even better, the odds that you make a complete straight that was born out of a flopped draw. "

Anyone have those numbers ?