K9s in SB

[Saborion]

3/6 at Party. "Average" table. Switch from loose to tight and vice versa. 9-handed.

I'm dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the SB.
EP1 limps, EP2 limps, I complete, BB raises, EP1 calls, EP2 calls, I call.
4 to the flop.

3.5 BB [Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
I bet, BB raises, EP1 calls, EP2 folds, I call.
3 to the turn.

6 BB [Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I bet, BB raises, EP1 calls, I call.

11 BB [Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
I check, BB bets, EP1 folds, what do I do?

And naturally, comments on all streets appreciated.

[Richie Rich]

BB's preflop raise tells me he's got something along the lines of: AA, AK/AQ, KK, QQ, KQ. In essence, you completed and called his raise because your K9 was suited. You were hoping for the flush, I'd assume, more than just top pair.

When K and Q fell on the flop, and your initial bet was raised by the BB, there should be sirens going off in your head. What "reasonable" hands can you beat at this point? Only AQ, JJ and 10s come to mind.

When you bet and were raised (again) on the turn, this is where you should lay it down. With two fours on the board, your hand is automatically dead if he spiked a set at this point.

Finally, the A on the end should signal that there is no way you can win this hand. You lose to: AA, KK, QQ, AK/AQ and KQ. The only hands you beat, now, are pocket Js and 10s. Would he be this persistent with these potential holdings, given three overcards on the board? I don't think so.

Be sure to choose your battles more wisely in the future. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Saborion]

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BB's preflop raise tells me he's got something along the lines of: AA, AK/AQ, KK, QQ, KQ.

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I can think of a few more hands he'd raise with in BB when he's only up against 3 opponents.

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In essence, you completed and called his raise because your K9 was suited. You were hoping for the flush, I'd assume, more than just top pair.

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I was hoping for a flush(draw), yes.

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When K and Q fell on the flop, and your initial bet was raised by the BB, there should be sirens going off in your head. What "reasonable" hands can you beat at this point? Only AQ, JJ and 10s come to mind.

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I wasn't all that excited about his raise, but not that sad either since he could have a few hands he'd play that way.

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When you bet and were raised (again) on the turn, this is where you should lay it down. With two fours on the board, your hand is automatically dead if he spiked a set at this point.

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This is about when I start thinking that I might be beat. But I have top pair, doubt it would be correct to fold for one more BB here when there only are five "realistic" the BB can have that beats me.

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Finally, the A on the end should signal that there is no way you can win this hand. You lose to: AA, KK, QQ, AK/AQ and KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. I did however put EP1 on a flushdraw on the turn, and when he folded on river, I was pretty sure that's what he was going for. Or some other draw. I'm not sure my call on the river is correct, but unless BB had a pocket pair, the hands I need to worry about are AK or KQ. Maybe AQ, but I'm not that worried about that hand. The pot was big. Maybe it was another BB down the drain.

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The only hands you beat, now, are pocket Js and 10s.

[/ QUOTE ]Not entierly true now, is it?

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Would he be this persistent with these potential holdings, given three overcards on the board? I don't think so.

[/ QUOTE ] Neither do I, but you never know. I didn't have any read/notes on that player, and until I do, I tend to pay them off. Should it be the other way around?

[Richie Rich]

Why would you want to be the one to pay him off at the end? Even when you're not involved in a hand, you should be watching the players and at least be making mental notes (if not written ones) about some of the players that stand out to you. Let the other players be the ones to pay them off...you'll get a better feel how to play against certain people at the expense of others.

Look for the bigger stacks, the players who seems to be winning more hands than the other players at the tables. What kinds of hands are they winning with? Are they on a hot streak, or are they playing well after the flop? Granted this may be a bit hard if you're playing 3 tables at once, but after 15 minutes, you should have already classified a of couple people as "those to watch".

Going back to the hand, let's be real. Granted, the BB could have raised preflop with anything from AA to A2 to 33. But didn't you "feel" his betting was strong on the flop and turn? Do you really think he would be betting only so-so cards like that when three face cards are on the board after the turn?

They say that a good poker player can expect to make 1 to 2 BB/hr at any LL table. Maybe a little more if you're playing on-line. But by calling the raise on the flop and the turn, perhaps you just threw your profit away for that hour. Continuously making poor calls to the river, you're sure to end up negative in the long run.

Just food for thought.

[Saborion]

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Going back to the hand, let's be real. Granted, the BB could have raised preflop with anything from AA to A2 to 33. But didn't you "feel" his betting was strong on the flop and turn? Do you really think he would be betting only so-so cards like that when three face cards are on the board after the turn?

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Yah, as I said, when he raised me on the turn I started to think I might be behind.

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They say that a good poker player can expect to make 1 to 2 BB/hr at any LL table. Maybe a little more if you're playing on-line. But by calling the raise on the flop and the turn, perhaps you just threw your profit away for that hour.

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Earlier I thought that every time I made a laydown that saved me a BB or two, that was what would make me that 1 BB / hour profit. I thought something along the line "Wow. 1 BB / hour? Hmmm... means that every time I'm paying someone off somewhere in the hand, I might be tossing away an entire hour." Not long ago though, I realized that maybe that 1 BB / hour is gained by not being that tight.

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Continuously making poor calls to the river, you're sure to end up negative in the long run.

Just food for thought.

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So true. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm semi-lucky, either way, I do feel as though I becomming a bit better every month. Only had two losing months since I started playing 11 months ago. The second and sixth month. Atm I'm averaging over 2 BB / hour playing 3/6 the way I play, but I'm far from having enough hours at that the table at that limit to say that's my real average. And I'm sure it'll drop quite a bit before I reach those 1k hours. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't usually post the results, but I think I will in this particular hand. Gonna hold on to them a little longer though, while waiting response from someone else.

[steveyz]

After the flop raise, if I really want to see what the BB has, I'd just check-call him down. If you are gonna bet the turn, fold to the raise. There's not too many hands you can beat and your hand isn't strong enough to be aggressive with against an unknown. So either check-call or bet-fold.

[Joe Tall]

I'd either 3-bet the flop or check-call the turn. Surely you have and over-call on the river as there are a few hands you will chop with now.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Richie Rich]

Well, I hope you found some value in what I had to say. I realize that it's a lot easier to dissect a situation when you have 10 minutes to think about it, rather than < 20 seconds to make your next move.

Should be interesting to hear someone else's take on how this hand was played. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Good luck!

[bernie]

richie made some real good points.

you've been there long enough to see it switch from loose to tight yet dont know the BB raising standards? he doesnt have to only raise from the BB to have his standards at least somewhat defined. meaning, you've given no description of him. mind you there are 2 EP limpers here. it's not like these players limped from LP which would indicate a weaker holding. but you didnt give a description of them either.

so this being 'typical'. id say his raise could be a big hand here. many typicals wont raise multiple hands out of the blinds in general. it's usually big cards at least. he's not likely raising the flop with an underpair or a draw. why would he raise a draw here? maybe an A high draw trying to clean up his possible A outs. though i have seen some players wrongly raise a draw here lately.

you've flopped top pair, no flush draw on a 2 tone. one of you're spiking a 9 outs is tainted a bit. you have 2 primary outs. the Q replacing your kicker would look better if the BB didnt raise preflop.

id check and maybe call 1 bet, fold for 2. if someone raises, you're likely beat and drawing slim. AND there can very easily be a showdown that you dont have to pay for.

if your playing for information on his play, i wouldnt have bet the turn. i want that information cheap with a hand im likely going to lose. id likely have folded to his raise here. which might be too weak. but id have played the flop differently. he's told you twice postflop he has you beat.

on the river, why wouldnt you call? you've gone this far. this decision should be contemplated on the turn before you decide how you play the turn. you call the turn, nothing really changes on the river given your hand, does it?

when playing Axs and Kxs, one key thing is how not to get trapped in the hand. being able to fold top pair when you hit it.

b

[Ulysses]

I'd think about 3-betting the flop and seeing what happens from there. If I didn't do that I'd check-call the turn. I don't see much good coming from your turn bet. Against some opponents I'd lay down to the turn raise, against others I'd call.

On the river, the pot is big and I can chop w/ some hands (KTs, KJs, etc. ) and there are even a few possible hands that I beat (QdJd, for example), so I'd make a crying call most times.

The right way to play this hand is very dependent on the BB. A lot of players I can fold to on the river if they still bet when an Ace falls. Others this is an automatic call.