Can a 3/6 or 4/8 game be beaten, or are there too many nits?

[novamob]

After playing 3/6 at the Mirage this past weekend and having played other low-limit hold-'em games, I am getting the impression that it is a crapshoot. People will play ANY 2 cards, so it is nearly impossible to put people on a hand. My AJs lost to 23off (the moron called a raise). My AK lost to 94s, etc. I watched a nit with 83s call a raise and beat AA. There were times when all 10 players saw the flop. Is such a game beatable by a good player, or is it now simply luck? What do I do? Do the higher limit games play straighter?

[ElSapo]

The reason the games are beatable is -because- they play any two. If you can't beat these games, moving up is probably not the best idea.

[beta77]

These types of games can be frustrating in the short term. However, while keeping in mind that your short term variance will increase in games such as these (due to the higher chance that someone will suck out on you), your overall win rate will be substantial if you continue to play tight and aggressive.

For example, if all 10 of you see the flop, a total "crapshoot" would indicate that you have a 10% chance of winning if everyone went to showdown. If you only play hands that are BETTER than your opponents, would you expect your chance of winning to be 1/10? Certainly not. Although your chance of winning may only be 20% to 35%, over time this is a substantial advantage over your lesser playing opponents. Try not to think of each individual suck out as a crapshoot, but rather, make good post flop decisions, get out when you feel you NO LONGER have the best hand, and take all their money in the long run.

Good luck to you.

[bernie]

[Schmed]

I hear this a lot with people. 'AK is not good in games where everyone sees the flop for any amount of money'... 'I can't beat the low limit game but I beat the higher game'...(heck I say the last one sometimes).....

Bottom line is these games are very beatable but you have to adjust to the players in the game. Multi-way hands go way up and big pairs go down in value. You get AA and raise you have 5 callers, and they call you to the river or raise at some point you have to be aware that they could have anything.

I actually find that the low limit player is so readable that you gain whatever edge you lose with everyone seeing the flop.

I posted a 3,6 hand that I played last night while I was waiting for my 6-12 game. I lost like 80 bucks at that 36 table and won 280 at 6-12. I really could have lost a lot more and I don't think I played poorly...(with the exception of that one hand).....But I have QQ, raise preflop, get a bunch of callers, flop comes garbage, I bet, callers...a lot of them.....turn pairs one of the garbage cards, and very weak player comes out betting....I fold.... everyone calls the guy.....he had the 24o for the full house on the turn....

The way I see these tables live is I look for the 2 people at the table that know how to play. I adjust to them and realize that with everyone else their hands will be an open book. If you show aggression and they bet in to you you can bet they have a pair beat. If you get C/Rd by one of these players look at the board, think what are the nuts, and now you know what they have. Don't say, 'Hmm I raised my AA he can't have the 24 for the str8'...he's got the 24 for the str8.

[Gamblor]

My AJs lost to 23off (the moron called a raise). My AK lost to 94s, etc. I watched a nit with 83s call a raise and beat AA. There were times when all 10 players saw the flop.

Realize that you only remember these because they are out of the ordinary, and incredibly frustrating

Winning all those bets 4 times out of 5 doesn't make the 5th time any less annoying, but remember that if you put your money in as a favourite, AA will hold up more than 23o.

Is such a game beatable by a good player, or is it now simply luck? What do I do? Do the higher limit games play straighter?

Being a good LL player has very little to do with hand reading and bluffing strategy and all that. Just stick with playing favourites for now.

A good analogy is as follows:

To be a good high school Quarterback, you must be a good athlete and practice. You learn how to throw a football better than anyone else, you'll win much of the time. You'll still lose, but you'll win more often. But as the players get better, and as they all understand the basic fundamentals of the game, i.e. what cards to play/when to pass and when to run, they need other methods to get an edge on their opponents. This is why bluffing and hand reading, tells and advertising begin to come into play, and in football we get offensive co-ordinators in booths with thousands in equipment, we get quarterbacks reading defenses at the line and calling audibles, we get coaches with complicated signals. But in a high school game, that would all be lost on a kid who can't even throw the ball.

[Joe Tall]

Yes, there are too many nits.

I have a solution. I'll set up a 3/6 private-game on Party Poker with some friends on here. I'll send you a message with the password so you can come play.

I hope this helps.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[juris]

Can "nit" be the password? Or at least the table name?

[asymmetrical]

You're taking a bad attitude toward a potentially very profitable game.

My local home games, depending on who is participating, can get like this: they roll between loose/passive and very loose/very aggressive. You need to learn to adjust your starting hands and playing characteristics to the texture of the game you're in.

As others have stated, in a very loose, very passive game TPTK and big pocket pairs will go down in value because so many people are drawing against you. Combining their collective outs against your outs to improve and you'll see you can sometimes becomes a dog even with TPTK.

Stop thinking of the game in terms of best hand at the moment, and start looking at the game as getting maximum value out of your best potental hands when they hit. In a game like this I push premium drawing hands. If everyone will stay to the river for several bets, and you can manipulate them to put even more bets in when you have a great drawing han....well, when you do hit that hand they're all going to pay you off handsomely. Flushes make me the most money consistently in my crazy loose games...often, in mid- to late position I'll play almost any 2 suited cards if enough people stay preflop and the people are ones I think I can push around on the turn and river.

Look at these loose low-limit games from a money/odds perspective as opposed to a hand-domination perspective and I think you'll do much better. Make sure when you're drawing you're getting the proper pot odds to continue, and when your opponent is not getting the proper odds, try and manipulate him into continuing anyway. If the game tightens up, you can tighten up with it and push your TP more aggressively. Learning to adjust to the game and playing dynamically has really helped my bottom line.

I know Gary Carson is not a popular name around these parts, but his book does a fantastic job of explaining how the game and theories of the game need to shift as the dynamic of the table shifts on the loose/tight and passive/aggressive scales.

To answer your initial question: the real reason a 3/6 or 4/8 casino game is unbeatable is because of the rake. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Good luck.

[MRBAA]

If you can't beat these games like a rented mule, you are not a very good player. I just played a 2-4 hand at Party last night where I capped with AA against a loose player, capped a flop of 9-10-3rainbow, bet and was called on a turn of an offsuit 4 and bet and was raised when a Jack fell on the river. The other player had jacks and hit a set. Big deal. I still averaged 4bb/hr for the night. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but these are the easiest games to beat, not the toughest.