I have never played a hand as bad as I played this one.

[Bluff1]

20 sng at stars. Blinds are 200/400 a25. 5 players left, everyone is basically even and all of us have about T 5000. Utg limps in, it’s folded to me on the sb I have K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I complete and bb checks.

Flops comes [J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

It’s checked around.

Turn [9h]

I check, bb checks, and utg bets T 1200, I move in all in, BB calls, utg folds. BB has [6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] and takes down the pot. Man the way I played this hand makes my blood boil, thoughts and bashings as always are welcome.

[DrPhysic]

Bluff,
You need an opinion from greg or kurn on this not me, but I have a couple of thoughts on your hand...

If you need to raise with AK to protect the hand, you really need to protect this, if you are going to play it. I think preflop you have to either fold it or raise, I don't like the limp. If you make any raise preflop and he’s slowplaying a big hand, he will tell you so.
On the flop, with the 4 straight, again I would either make a significant raise or prepare to fold. If you raise 2-3BB on the flop, maybe UTG folds.
After the T1200 raise on the turn, I do fold. I can't see the allin with 8 chances of 46 remaining on the river to complete the straight vs 2/1 pot odds.
Basically I think overall you have a choice between don't play this at all, or play it a lot more aggressively.

Doc

[TheGrifter]

[ QUOTE ]
After the T1200 raise on the turn, I do fold. I can't see the allin with 8 chances of 46 remaining on the river to complete the straight vs 2/1 pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the straight already complete on the turn? I made a similar mistake in a tourney the other day when I had a made straight and there was a 3-flush on the board. Except mine was worse because I was 3rd in chips at the final table of a sat. where the top 4 got a seat.

[DrPhysic]

You're right. I dislike KQo so much, I didn't even catch the fact that he had already made it. Now what do you do???

I still think the real solution here is if you're going to play it, raise preflop to find out how much of a hand UTG has, and

semi bluff with the 4 straight post flop. I think he wins the hand right there (in one case or the other) by being more agressive.

I really don't like KQo. I will lay it down in a second. I have prob lost more $ with them than any other two cards.

Doc

[Prickly Pete]

I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest that your play wasn't all that bad.

Seeing a flop cheaply isn't a bad thing. If you raise preflop, it's mainly just to steal. You can't call any reraises imo. Once the flop comes, either checking or going for the semi-bluff is ok.

On the turn, it's just a matter of if you think he's betting the flush here. It's a gamble, but I see this bet so much with the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or top pair, that often you are ahead. And if you're putting him on something like the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], going allin is good to make him pay for the draw.

[TheGrifter]

Really? I guess he might be betting a high heart with a pair part of the time but is it really worth it to find out? I think I wouldn't mind putting a player to the test on a 3-flush board with a set than a made straight (although not on this board with the flush & possible straight out there) because at least that way I have some outs if I'm wrong. I don't know, I would just think that if all the money goes in on a board with three to a flush that most of the time a straight is drawing dead.

[TheGrifter]

I agree that it doesn't play well in a full table, raised pot. I'm with you and will usually lay it down preflop unless I have good position in relation to the raiser.

[DrPhysic]

Pete,

I agree with your analysis of the post turn completely.

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing a flop cheaply isn't a bad thing. If you raise preflop, it's mainly just to steal. You can't call any reraises imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, the steal isn't the reason for a cheap raise preflop (1 or at most 2 bb). My thought was that if UTG has a big hand and can re-raise, I want nothing to do with a call. I was looking for enough information to get away from that KQo as fast as my little legs would carry me before I invest any more $ in the hand.

Obviously on a short table 2,3 players, I would play the KQo for value, but not here if he can re-raise.

Doc

[Bluff1]

One reason I didn't raise was my position would have been crap had I got called. Looking back at it now, this is one of those hands where I got beat and I beat myself up about it. A raise would have drove out the bb and utg would have most likely called and or reraised. I wanted to get to the flop as cheaply as possible. I don't think there was any other way I could have played it on the turn other than all in.

[DrPhysic]

Let's carry this discussion one step farther, because I think the can of worms Bluff, Pete, Grifter, and I have opened is a sort of interesting one:

Preflop, you have three choices, fold, limp, raise.
The reasons you might do them as I can think them up right now are:

Fold
Lousy hand
Better hand with a large previous raise
Chip conservation mode with a less than nuts hand
Chip conservation mode on the bubble (here is the possible fold of AA)

Limp
Drawing hand, need to see cheap flop
Slow playing a big hand
No balls, should be in next category

Raise
Value bet to get more $ in pot
Steal
Information, need to find out how big opponents hand is (are)

Others? I know I can't have them all thought up in 5 minutes.

Doc