If you are a mid-limit player in Los Angeles….

[Rick Nebiolo]

…check out this Speed Racer RGP thread titled “Should the Nits, Old Men, Rocks, and Nut Peddlers Take Their Action to the Commerce Top Section?” regarding the probable impact of the change from time collection to drop in the Commerce yellow chip games.

Note that this thread is currently active so my Google link won’t include the latest RGP posts (since Google only scans and archives newsgroups about three times a day). If you have set up a proper newsreader (e.g., Agent, Outlook Express) use that or go to the web based RGP access at www.recpoker.com for the latest. Using recpoker you may have to scroll a bit as the first post went up on February 9th.

Regards,

Rick

[Phat Mack]

Does LA in fact have a pool of Rocks clocking the games, waiting to pounce?

[Rick Nebiolo]

Although there are some rocks, nits and nut peddlers currently playing mid limits in Los Angeles more will develop over time with the introduction of drop. In regards to this topic I wrote the following post in the above linked thread which isn't available through Google yet (it should be tonight). Since I wrote it I suppose I can reprinted it here [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Speed Racer wrote in part:

>>Actually, most nits, rocks, weak tights and old men won't play KJ, KQ,
>>or QJ unless they get to play them in the blinds for free or a half
>>bet or 6+ people have limped in front of them.
>>
>>They also don'e play TT in early postion and muck them in middle and
>>late position when the pot is raised in front of them. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Barbara Gallamore then wrote in response to Speed Racer:

>You couldn't be more wrong. Where are these nut peddlers? Most old men I know
>play really bad. In fact, they're my favorite opponents. Speedy, you label
>players to fit your thesis, but you're wrong.

I then responded an hour so ago:

Speed Racer may be one to overuse stereotypes and engage in hyperbole
but with a change from time collection to per hand drop in middle
limits expect a higher proportion of nits, rocks, and nut peddlers to
infest the games. This change in the style of games is inevitable and
it will hasten over time.

Nits, rocks, and nut peddlers may move into town from nit havens such
as Las Vegas or develop from the existing base of residents and
players. As Speed Racer more or less explained, the current Los
Angeles area everyday regular "marginal action player" may become more
of a nit, rock or nut peddler when it dawns on him that if he doesn't
play marginal hands or marginal situations he won't pay drop as often.
The still looser regular or semi-regular player who otherwise doesn't
pay much attention to collection may then fold his 9-6 suited preflop
when he sees that he can't win a big multi-way pot. Now the real
gambler may pass on the game (or leave it early) when he sees the pots
are small. The trend to tighter games filled with a higher
proportion of nits, rocks and nut peddlers will take time and
sometimes be interrupted by other factors (as it is now with the
infusion of new blood due to the success of the WPT and WSOP on
television) but it is otherwise inexorable. Conversely, expect the
remaining base of "action players" to slowly gravitate towards the
card clubs that keep time collection for middle limits and above.

Of course the nits, rocks and nut peddlers may or may not be "old men"
or even "old white men" as described in this previous Speed Racer
post: http://tinyurl.com/224wc In a multi-cultural arena such as Los
Angeles we can expect to find the nit, rock, nut peddler stereotype
within various ages, genders and ethnic groups.

BTW, I don't believe Speed Racer was racist in his depiction. My own
observation is that you have many "old white men" who have retired and
moved into inexpensive Las Vegas homes and apartments in large part to
spend their remaining days in large part playing a certain style of
poker that is anathema to the Los Angeles based player. As Speed
Racer hilariously wrote in the above linked post they sit six deep in
the typical game and "take turns playing one hand per hour heads up on
the flop against a guy from Iowa who doesn't know what a dominated
hand means".

Speed Racer notes that most of the existing base of Los Angeles
players doesn't think this is much fun. Although I'm marginally old,
almost a "blue blood" by Los Angeles standards, and tend to be
somewhat tight and sometimes a nut peddler (I deny being a nit), I
agree.

Regards,

Rick

[Phat Mack]

Let's say that the Commerce eliminated all charges and let the players play for free. What would happen?

PS: In the past, when games have been changed from rakes to time charges, I've been recruited by rocks to help them lobby for a reversal of the change. They always argue that it hurts the "good" player. By "good," they mean "tight."

[Ulysses]

His argument and yours both definitely make logical sense. However, FWIW, at the two cardrooms closest to me (LC and AJs, which are minutes apart), one has a drop 15-30 and the other has a time 20-40. There's no increased nit concentration in the 15-30. Of course, these are also two games where the core player base (different players) in each lobbied successfully to have another dollar dropped to take part in the jackpot.

[Phat Mack]

one has a drop 15-30 and the other has a time 20-40.

I wonder if this points to the strongest factor in determining nit concentration being the blind structure. (I'm assuming that the blinds in the 15-30 are 10, 15.)

[limon]

during the early mid 90's the games in the bay area were sooooo good it was just ridiculous. When the economy cooled the games cooled. L.A. has a booming economy and loose money will prevail in these games regardless of the rake. In the 10-10 pl game you have to play against a line up of 4-5 world class players at any given time, that's a serious rake yet they just keep coming out of the woodwork to lose more and more. the econonomy in LV is a WEEKEND economy. there is no weekday money in that town. on the weekends the 15-30 at bellagio is as good as any game on the planet, and the 2-5 nl game at monte carlo is totally off the charts. if the palms starts spreading NL as advertised these games will be beyond good, i see alot of Maloof steakhouses in my future. you cant compare a weekend economy to one that goes 24/7 the rake has little to do with the action.

[mike l.]

you rgp people are all completely high. the time drop will change nothing. it will help the tight sensible players like you rick, and only hurt the loose awful players a tiny bit.

after all what difference will $20-$40 extra a night more cost the typical awful 20-40 player who comes in with $1000 to lose, proceeds to play for 2-10 hours until it's all gone, and then leaves and comes back in a few days and does it all again? and once every 10-15 times maybe he wins $2000 and has to leave because his wife asks him to come home at that very moment, so he leaves thinking about how good a player he is. the time drop will not have any noticeable effect on these types of players of which there are many (thank god).

the player who may suffer a little (and i do mean a little) bit more is the break evenish wannabee. and his swings are generally so big and his bankroll so inconsistent that he will never notice the difference either.

so the whole debate is nonsense. good players will benefit a little from pot collections, and bad losing players wont notice any difference, and that's all that matters to us. the games down here in oceanside are $4 pot drop and they are as loose and un-nitlike as can be imaginable. every single player plays much looser than is correct and even the best players (like me) have severe leaks in their game. and, i have to say, being able to get up and take a walk and not feel like the walk is costing you $5 really helps one want to play longer sessions.

[mike l.]

"Let's say that the Commerce eliminated all charges and let the players play for free. What would happen?"

the obvious answer is that all the players who are conscious of the rake would go play at commerce. that would include almost all winning players and most break-even/small winners/small losers, and a few chronic/big losers. but most big losers just go to the closest place or where they feel comfortable. so places like HP or hustler or the bike would have less games, but they would be the best games ever and probably worth paying to play in.

[Ed Miller]

But AJs is still a button charge, not a rake, correct? That's completely different.