Mosch: Naked And Tilting

[mosch]

Maybe I'm being results oriented, maybe I'm right when I think that 'dear god, I suck.' All I know for sure is that I just successfully dumped 28BBs in 55 minutes at a single 2/4 table, and I'm concerned that I'm just not in the game.

As such, I'm posting the hands I was involved in, and where you can criticize or simply laugh at the evil that is a tilty mosch. I don't like to post hands unless I'm pretty sure that I played them awfully, and in this case I feel the whole session qualified.

Here goes:

Hand 1:

Party Poker 2/4 (9 handed)
Tilty has T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and is MP2

EP1 limps, Tilty raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, EP1 calls

Flop(6 1/2 SB): 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, EP1 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, EP1 folds, Tilty calls

Turn(5 1/4 BB): 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB bets, Tilty calls

River(7 1/4 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB bets, Tilty folds

Seems reasonable to me.

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Hand 2:

Party Poker 2/4 (8 handed)
Tilty has Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and is SB

MP1 limps, Button folds, Tilty limps, BB checks

Flop(3 SB): 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Tilty bets, BB calls, MP1 calls

Turn(3 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Tilty bets, BB calls, MP1 folds

River(5 BB): 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Tilty bets, BB calls

I thought playing this hand in a straight-forward manner was best in this situation.

Results: BB had 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

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Hand 3:

Party Poker 2/4 (7 handed)
Tilty has 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and is BB

MP1 limps, MP2 limps, Button raises, SB folds, Tilty calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls

Flop(8 1/2 SB): 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Tilty checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Tilty calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Button calls, Tilty calls

Turn(7 1/4 BB): 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Tilty checks, MP1 bets, Button folds, Tilty folds

I should've mucked this garbage pre-flop.

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Hand 4:

Party Poker 2/4 (7 handed)
Tilty has A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and has the Button

Tilty raises, BB raises, Tilty calls

Flop(6 1/2 SB): 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, Tilty bets, BB calls

Turn(4 1/4 BB): T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB bets, Tilty raises, BB raises, Tilty calls

River(10 1/4 BB): J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB bets, Tilty calls

On the turn I first thought it was an aggressive blind defense, and on the three-bet was concerned about AT, or a flopped set, but decided to call down.

Results: BB had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

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Hand 5:

Party Poker 2/4 (8 handed)
Tilty has 4s, Qd and is BB

EP1 limps, MP2 limps, Button folds, SB limps, Tilty checks

Flop(4 SB): Qs, 9d, 4d
SB bets, Tilty raises, EP1 calls, MP2 folds, SB calls

Turn(5 BB): 7s
SB checks, Tilty bets, EP1 calls, SB calls

River(8 BB): 8s
SB checks, Tilty bets, EP1 raises, SB folds, Tilty calls

I think this is just a bad beat, to enjoy.

Results: EP1 turns over J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

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Hand 6:

Party Poker 2/4 (9 handed)
Tilty has Ks, Kd and is BB

EP1 limps, MP1 limps, CO limps, Button raises, SB folds, Tilty 3-bets, EP1 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, Button caps, Tilty calls, EP1 calls, MP1 calls

Flop(17 1/2 SB): 8d, 2s, 5h
Tilty bets, EP1 calls, MP1 folds, Button calls

Turn(10 1/4 BB): Td
Tilty bets, EP1 folds, Button calls

River(12 1/4 BB): Ac
Tilty bets, Button calls

I think I lost the optimal amount of money on this hand, possibly could've lost a little more by check-raising the flop. Could've reduced some risk by check-calling the river.

Results:
Button turns over A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Hand 7:

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Tilty has 4s, 4h and is MP2

EP2 limps, Tilty limps, MP3 limps, CO raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, EP2 calls, Tilty calls, MP3 calls

Flop(11 SB): 4d, Ac, 5h
SB checks, EP2 checks, Tilty bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB folds, EP2 folds

Turn(6 1/2 BB): 8s
Tilty bets, CO raises, Tilty 3-bets, CO caps, Tilty calls

River(14 1/2 BB): 9c
Tilty bets, CO raises, Tilty calls

This was the error (limping with a puny pair in EP) that was compounded by a pre-flop raise, which was then compounded by me thinking 'perhaps he's overplaying an ace with a big kicker', which was then compounded by my ignoring the turn cap and betting out on the river. Did I miss any errors?

Results: CO turns over A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

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Hand 8:

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Tilty has T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and is MP1

Tilty limps, MP3 limps, CO limps, Button folds, SB limps, UTG checks

Flop(5 SB): 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG checks, Tilty bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB folds, UTG calls

Turn(4 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG bets, Tilty folds, CO calls

River(6 BB): A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG bets, CO calls

This hand was played immediately after the previous hand, and I decided at the turn that I wasn't able to determine if I was seeing monsters or not, and thus decided to fold, finish my orbit, and call it a session.

Results: UTG turns over Qs Ts
CO mucks 6s 6d

Thank you for getting this far, I appreciate it.

Hand 4 was edited, as it incorrectly listed the flop as not containing an ace.

[BottlesOf]

I'm drunk and can't get through that post right now. But I wanted to tell you that that is the single funniest subject line for a post I've ever seen.

[Ed Miller]

Hand 1: I 3-bet the flop. At the very least, I'm not done being aggressive with a big draw and position after just being check-raised on the flop.

Hand 2: Fine

Hand 3: Preflop call is marginal, but not terrible. I don't like the check-call on the flop, though. I probably would have check-raised.

Hand 4: Ya... this is no good. 3-bet preflop and check the flop always sets off warning bells in my mind. Sometimes the warning bells are unfounded, but I believe that turn 3-bet big time.

Hand 5: Sucks to be you

Hand 6: What is your plan after the flop? The pot is huge, and you have three opponents. What should you be trying to do?

I think I lost the optimal amount of money on this hand, possibly could've lost a little more by check-raising the flop. Could've reduced some risk by check-calling the river.

This shows that you are thinking about hands like this in 100% the wrong way. How should you be thinking about them?

Hand 7: Your preflop limp is fine... not an error. When you lose set over set, you are gonna lose some money. Having said that, I would have check-called the river.

Hand 8: If that's not the most suspicious turn bet, I don't know what is. I would not have laid down.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
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Hand 3:

Party Poker 2/4 (7 handed)
Tilty has 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and is BB

MP1 limps, MP2 limps, Button raises, SB folds, Tilty calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Ehh... I'm pretty liberal about defending my blinds, but I hate doing it with Ax, Kx and Qx hands that can easily be dominated.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop(8 1/2 SB): 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Tilty checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Button bets, Tilty calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Button calls, Tilty calls

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer folding or (check)raising here. There's a reasonable chance that the Button holds AK, AQ etc and you can get the rest of the table to fold.

I think your holding is too thin to draw. If you had a runner-runner flush draw ... maybe.

[ QUOTE ]
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Hand 4:

Party Poker 2/4 (7 handed)
Tilty has A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and has the Button

Tilty raises, BB raises, Tilty calls

Flop(6 1/2 SB): 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, Tilty bets, BB calls

Turn(4 1/4 BB): T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB bets, Tilty raises, BB raises, Tilty calls

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably give it up right away. The pot isn't quite large enough to justify a 3-bet or drawing to what could be dubious outs. You should absolutely give it up when he 3-bets.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 6:

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you played it fine. If the River bet is -EV, it isn't hugely so. Check-raising the flop would have been okay too.

[ QUOTE ]
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Hand 8:

Party Poker 2/4 (10 handed)
Tilty has T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and is MP1

Tilty limps, MP3 limps, CO limps, Button folds, SB limps, UTG checks

Flop(5 SB): 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, UTG checks, Tilty bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB folds, UTG calls

Turn(4 BB): 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG bets, Tilty folds, CO calls


[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe worth a 3-bet. Maybe. Depends on your opponent. It seems like there's a good chance he doesn't have the flush because (1) a lot of players would have value-bet the four flush from the flop from that position; (2) a lot of players would have check-raised with a turned flush from that position.

Was UTG a poster? If so, a 5 might play it this way, intially planning to c/raise the turn, but getting scared once the third flush card hit.

...

You overplayed a couple of hands, took a couple of bad beats, and flopped a couple of second-best hands that you were bound to lose money with. It's nothing to beat yourself up over.

[mosch]

Hand 4 was a little less awful (or at least it was differently awful), as the flop contained an ace. Now edited to be correct.

Hand 6's comments are unclear as well, because my tone of voice disappears when you're typing, not speaking. My opponents in that hand were usually passive... the cap was completely and totally out of character, the simple call post-flop made me think, immediately, that he was probably on overcards and would take a free card if offered. Thus, I felt I probably needed to bet out if I wanted to win the hand.

I might've been able to check-raise once, and that may have been a superior play... that's what I meant by 'I probably could've lost a little more by check-raising the flop'.

Given my read on my opponents, and the lack of scare cards, I felt that (until the ace came) my goal should've been to get as much money in the pot as was possible until the ace showed up, thus my comments about 'losing about the right about of money'.

Hand 7... I usually don't like to play small pairs (2-6 or so) from EP, simply because I know nothing about the number of players in the hand, or how many bets it'll cost me.

What do you think when you get into that situation?

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually don't like to play small pairs (2-6 or so) from EP

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to have 2 limpers in before I play these hands in early/middle position unless the game is very loose.

[Lori]

that's what I meant by 'I probably could've lost a little more by check-raising the flop'

Might be a touch of zoo syndrome sneaking into your posts, it didn't even occur to me that this could be taken another way until Ed's reply.

I would have written an almost identical phrase. "I lost the optimal amount".

Lori

[Ed Miller]

The problem is that the pot is very large preflop. When the pot is large, your mindset should NOT be, "how much will I lose if I'm behind." That mindset causes people to miss important raises and play too passively.

When the pot is very big, you just have to protect your hand even if you think you might be behind.

Now, he bet at every opportunity, so I'm not calling his play passive. It's the MINDSET I think is dangerous. Specifically, I see people miss turn raises ALL THE TIME because they want to "lose the optimal amount."

As for the rest of the play of the hand, being out of position in a big pot is very tough. Sometimes you can't play the hand any better than he did, especially if the game is passive. But when the pot is huge, always start grinding away, "Is there any way I can get a check-raise in? Can I possibly get a turn raise in? Where would the bet come from?" You want people who flopped middle pair to have to fold. Betting the flop and betting the turn won't make them fold. Try to figure out a strategy that will.

[Ed Miller]

Hand 4 is much better now. I would have just called on the turn, though. I also might check behind on the flop, depending on the opponent.

Given my read on my opponents, and the lack of scare cards, I felt that (until the ace came) my goal should've been to get as much money in the pot as was possible until the ace showed up, thus my comments about 'losing about the right about of money'.

Even without scare cards, you generally should want people to fold, not to get more money in the pot. Anyone with any flopped pair, gutshot, or even ace has odds to take one off on the flop... and most of them will have odds again on the turn because the pot is bloated.

You are better served if all those hands fold as soon as possible.

Hand 7... I usually don't like to play small pairs (2-6 or so) from EP, simply because I know nothing about the number of players in the hand, or how many bets it'll cost me.

That's not true. You don't "know nothing" about the number of players in the hand, or how many bets it'll cost you. Most games fall into patterns... loose and passive, loose and aggressive, etc. It's paranoid to expect the next pot in a game that's been seven ways for one bet for the past hour to all of a sudden be three-handed for three bets.

Small pairs are generally profitable in loose games, no matter your position. Small pairs are unprofitable when you limp in, get isolated by a raise, and end up three ways for two bets. But in most of these games that you guys play in, fearing that is unfounded. That will happen sometimes, but usually less than ten percent of the time you limp in with a small pair. Much more often, the pot will end up five- or more-handed for one or two bets each. Pairs thrive under these conditions. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

In these soft, loose games that abound today, traditional advice to play tightly with small pairs is simply inaccurate.