River Play

jen · #1 02-02-2004, 05:40 PM

1-1-2. Short-handed. Here were the players:

SB: Solid, tricky pro -- had me covered.
BB: Solid, tricky regular -- had me covered.
UTG: Weak player -- ~$200.
Button: Me -- ~$200.

UTG mucked. I had 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and completed on the Button. SB made it $12 to go. BB called. I called.

Flop: [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

Check-check-check.

Turn: [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check-check-check.

River: [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bet $16. BB called. What should my action have been here?

(SB's river bet was a value bet -- a bluff would have been bigger.)

Ulysses · #2 02-02-2004, 06:00 PM

First off, as I'm sure you're not surprised to hear from me, I'd want to be playing w/ much deeper stacks to think about making the call of that pre-flop raise.

Anyway, to the river.

Would SB re-raise you w/ less than a flush? If so, I'd just call.

Otherwise, I'd raise as much as you think he would call w/ two pair and hope he has something like 9T or JQ. 68 in the pot. If you make it 60 straight, that's 128 and 44 more to him. 3:1 probably gets you calls from those hands and maybe even a suspicious worse hand. So, something like that I think...

Ulysses · #3 02-03-2004, 12:39 AM

Regardless of my thoughts on the pre-flop call, I think this is a very interesting river decision. Anyone agree w/ my response? Anyone disagree? Anyone agree that it's interesting?

Even more interesting is how many tricky pros are playing in this "1-1-2" game w/ $200 stacks. Maybe jen should try some of the other games around here, as this one sounds just as tough as the LC 10-10-20 game.

ML4L · #4 02-03-2004, 01:23 AM

Hey jen,

[ QUOTE ]
Even more interesting is how many tricky pros are playing in this "1-1-2" game w/ $200 stacks. Maybe jen should try some of the other games around here, as this one sounds just as tough as the LC 10-10-20 game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, the "1-1-2" trick only works once... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

As for the actual hand, I agree completely with Ulysses' reasoning. If reopening the betting is going to leave you with a tough decision (where you might end up either folding the best hand or having to pay off a bigger flush), I think that there's nothing wrong with an overcall. And, if you do raise, I like the ballpark that Ulysses suggests; seems like a very natural amount...

That Ulysses guy must play good, or something.

ML4L

Paul2432 · #5 02-03-2004, 01:27 AM

I agree that the hand is interesting. I don't have much experience playing against tricky pros in short handed NL games, so take this with a grain of salt.

Doesn't Ciaffone recommend overbetting the pot in this kind of situation? That is try and sell your raise as a bluff. If you subscribe to this philosophy then I'd say raise to 100. The caller in between maybe changes the dynamics and makes the Ciaffone advice wrong. I don't know.

I do agree that the hand should be folded once the pot is raised pre-flop. This is especially so if you are unwilling to go all-in on a hand like this. When I play a speculative hand it is with the hope of making a hand strong enough to go all-in with.

Paul

Ulysses · #6 02-03-2004, 02:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I do agree that the hand should be folded once the pot is raised pre-flop. This is especially so if you are unwilling to go all-in on a hand like this. When I play a speculative hand it is with the hope of making a hand strong enough to go all-in with.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of players here could stand to learn that. A lot of "speculative" hands are hands that you're likely to either win a little or go bust on.

In this case, jen has the perfect situation. She has the button. The flop and turn get checked through. And she backdoors her hand on the river. The perfect situation for her hand.

And now she's bet into and has a tough decision.

If she just calls, she'll make $24 + $32 = $56. So, calling $12 pre-flop w/ crap to win $56 in a near ideal situation. That's terrible.

Sure, sometimes you'll flop A45 (and hold up) v. AA, but the money's not nearly deep enough to be looking for that kind of nonsense.

Vehn · #7 02-03-2004, 02:26 AM

Before I read your response I thought "raise to 60 on the river", so hopefully someone who's actually good will tell us what the right answer is.

theBruiser500 · #8 02-03-2004, 02:27 AM

This is a little besides the point, but...

Why no semibluff on the turn? It seems like a natural bet to make there. If you had semi bluffed, then when you hit you're hand would be more disguised and if they had big hands you'd get paid off for more money. Of course, the quality of this game is no doubt much higher quality than anything I'm accustomed to so many I'm way off base here.

danny

Zeno · #9 02-03-2004, 03:16 AM

Could the SB have A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K of other suit? Why no raise from the BB - why this cold call - ? BB has a straight? flush? I don't like any of this. It is a very interesting hand. You may have been smart checking behind twice but that ended up putting you to a decision on the river. Someone was surely going to bet the river right? Spade or not, Ace or not etc. Now the volcano is erupting and you are asking us how big the eruption is. I don't know, I wasn't there.

I would Call. That is a forum response. If I was actually there I may do something completely different. Something like this............ on the flop or maybe something like that...........on the turn................just to see what would happen and maybe an extra flair of this............ on the river.

Hope this helps.

The preflop call of the raise is cutting the edge thin in my opinion and also as Ulysses pointed out. But it is your money and cards and yes it was four handed poker so taking a wild stab with the button in your lap is fun sometimes.

-Zeno

Ulysses · #10 02-03-2004, 03:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
But it is your money and cards and yes it was four handed poker so taking a wild stab with the button in you lap is fun sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, that is a completely different thing. In spots like this I will often play on the button in the right situations against the right guys as long as my hand is any two cards. I guess what I'm saying is, I'd never call a raise in this situation w/ 23s. But I may well call a raise w/ any two cards, which may just happen to be 23s. And I'll probably be doing something after the flop.