two 5/10 NL hands

[hazeelnut]

Most stacks are around $1000 in both hands unless otherwise is stated.

hand 1:

Im in the SB with 88, utg min raises and there are two callers when it gets to me, i call and so does the BB. Flop comes

8TJ rainbow

what now?

I bet out pot($100) and got min raised by the BB. I called. Turn was a blank. I checked, he went all in for another 400 or so. I called.


hand 2

I get TT on the button. utg calls, utg+1 bets pot, 2 callers when it gets to me, i call blinds fold, utg calls. 5 players and about 200 in the pot. Flop comes:

TJK two diamonds

All check to me, and i bet pot only to get min raised by the preflop raiser. All fold to me and I call. Turn is a blank, and utg+1 goes all in for 500 more. I call.


Results:

As you may have guessed, i was beat on both these hands, in hand 1 by 79 and hand 2 by the fairly obvious AQ.

There you have it. I cant say im proud of how i played these hands but i really dont know how i should have played them either. Both flops are really dangerous to give free cards on. So checking the flop cant really be correct, can it? Then folding to the min raise doesnt really feel right either. Maybe i should have folded both hands on the turn. Comments would be lovely.

[Bogatog]

I'm just starting to get an understanding of NL, but to me it seems that unless you have some fairly good reads on your opponents you're [censored].

[AJo Go All In]

totally untrue. in aggressive games he will have the best hand a good majority of the time.

[turnipmonster]

as you know, sets are very, very tough to get away from. here's my thinking on the hand, feel free to comment/criticize:

on the first hand I would put the BB allin after the min raise on the flop. it's true that this time, that's what he wanted, but he will think twice in the future about minimum raising you with lesser hands if he knows you will play back at him. so as long as you're commited to calling the turn, just put him in.

the second hand, it's pretty player dependent. there are a few players I would consider laying this down on the turn against, but not many. really it's completely dependent on the player and your read. if your opponent would play 2 pair or AK like this, then you probably are commited to calling. but against a weak tight player, folding is a possibility.

--turnipmonster

[tewall]

When you have a great hand like a set, you want to get the money in. Unless you're an expert, or you have a great read on an oppnent, forget about trying to save money when your set is beat, and try to get all-in on the flop.

Arguments can be made for both betting and checking the flop. An argument for checking is that you don't want a check to mean a free ride for your opponent, so by check-raising him with good hands you set him on notice that a check by you doesn't necessarily mean weakness.

Having said that, I think betting out with a set is generally the better play, and especially here. First of all, as you point out, you don't want to give a free card with that board. Secondly, you've got the perfect amount to get all-in on by betting and re-raising if you're raised. Many players will re-raise you with a draw, so just because you're raised doesn't mean you're beat.

You've got to re-raise when you're raised. If your opponent is on a draw, you're got to charge him for the same reason you bet. If he's got you beat, that's just one of those things. Besides, you still win about 1/3 of the time when you're behind. So re-raise all-in on the flop.

[gavrilo]

In hand #2 I would be very careful here. If the PF raiser isn't a Maniac and is generally solid, what hands would he raise PR and then check the flop with. I would imagine AK, AA, QQ and the likes would alteast bet this flop. fearing more cards and not wanting it to get checked around. I'm not saying that you should have gotten away from this hand cheap, but when an EP PF raiser(who is not a maniac) checks a board like this, I can't help but think they either had a middle PP or you are way behind.

[ML4L]

Hey hazeelnut,

I would have gotten my money in on the flop both times. Like you said, both flops are big drawing flops. In Hand 1, BB could easily have two pair, pair and straight draw, etc. Fairly clear cut there. Hand 2, I think there can be a case for being more conservative. What's your read on the player? Would he raise preflop with KQs? Would he play AK like this? Would he play the nut flush draw like this? I suppose you could get away from this hand against the correct opponent, but that is a tough board to let go of your set on. Plus, you were drawing live on both hands...

The main benefit of getting the money in on the flop is that if the opponent has a draw, he doesn't get to see the next card cheaply. Plus, by not getting all-in, you might put yourself in a position where you could be bluffed out by a lessor hand, depending on the turn card.

But, I think you played fine; better luck next time...

ML4L

[Bogatog]

AJ, what I meant was this... In the situations he described, unless I have a really good read on the opponents my whole stack is going in. If they have me beat so be it.

[theBruiser500]

My only comment is that in hand 2 the behavior of that that preflop agressor is so suspicious that you might be able to get away from it. Raise preflop, then check, then minraise on a dangerous board? I think he must have a higher set or a straight. With the minraise he's saying he isn't afraid of a another card, and that he wants you to call. I think that unless this player is stupid or very deceptive or something you can fold to the min raise or call looking for a full house and then fold on the turn.

No one really commented on this, what do you guys think about laying it down based on the raiser's suspicious play?

danny