Humble Pie

[DrPhysic]

This post is not one I think a lot of people would make, or enjoy making, but I think the
humble pie is worth the effort, because I don't think I'm the only one in similar circumstance, and because if anyone can help it’s the 2+2 guys (and girls). There are three recent posts that initiated this:

The thread on Zoo: Who here makes over $20/Hr?
The thread on TF: Winning % in Sit N Go's
And CrisBrown’s quote in "Suggestions" post by thomastem: "Yup. Figure your first $1000 is tuition for "poker school" and don't expect to make much profit from it. You may be the exception, having a lot of ring game experience. And of course reading here may help a lot. But you still have to pay your tuition money."

Now I know Poker players wouldn't lie, (Stretch the truth a little maybe). But 2+2 makes it sound like everybody on the site is making $30-$50 an hour, and winning 50%-70% of their sit&go's.

Well, I'm not. I have spent Cris's grand. Partly on books, partly on 1/2, 2/4 ring tables,
partly on SNG's and regular tournaments.

I got on line Sept 15 after reading some of DS's books while on vacation.

I have read TOP(twice), GTBOI(twice), HEP, HEPFAP, Hellmuth, 5th Street, finishing SS now. I have found several articles interesting especially "The Different Stages in a Player's Life" RZ, Skill, Luck, Tortoise, Hare DS, & On Tilt MM. I bought TPFAP DS today, and plan to read PL&NL Poker Reuben and Ciaffone next. (and 22 more books on the list after that.)

I play mostly on Stars, some 1/2 or 2/4 LHE ring, but mostly 10+1 SNGs, and 10&under buyin Tourns both LHE and NLHE. Still learning the differences between LHE & NLHE, either ring or tournament. I consider the low buyin tournaments as an investment more than a loss, because I get lots of hands of poker at a fixed price, and if I win, as I started out to do, that’s fine.

I won 2nd in the SNG two weeks ago, and that was the only one I had won this year. (Update: cashed 4 straight SNG’s on Party Sunday.) I have won $3+addons satellites to get in the Stars 200+15 or 500+30 NLHE four times but not cashed in the tourns. 133rd, 156th, 84th, 400th.

The situation I have found myself in recently is simple: I couldn't win a buck if I was
the only person at the table. And I am NOT on tilt. I'm not playing or betting crazy, If
anything I play too tight. I well know that I need more experience, especially on short
tables. Under my name it says enthusiast, and I am, but I am also a learner, and know I have a long way to go to be a good HE player much less a good poker player.

Now, the $900 plus books that I'm out at the moment isn't killing me. I’m not gambling with the grocery money. I spend 12K a year on Spurs season tickets and as much on fly fishing vacations. That probably makes me one of Cris's "Weak rich fish". (Which I feel like some of the time.)

I am also smart enough to know that when you sit down to learn a new card game at this level you pay your dues. I did it 15 years ago at Hollywood Gin, and 10 years ago at Blackjack. I bring home their money today most of the time at either game. Anyone wanna play gin? I could re-stake myself for poker pretty quickly. Before September I was a better than average kitchen table poker player. I decided to learn it well enough to play with you guys.

I am making this post for a couple of reasons.

One is to let the other learners out there know that all the poker players in the world are
not making $20 and hour or cashing 70% of their SNGs. You're not alone.

The other is to ask for some assistance in formulating a plan that will get me on a winning track. Moving down to micro limits and reading more books until I learn how to play poker is of course one option. Continuing to enter 1+0, 3+0, and 10 cash tourns, and entering 3+addons to the Sunday tourns until I win one and cover the stake is a possibility, and is the one I have largely been using for the last month. It also gives me lots of hands to look at for a reasonable price. So far I haven't covered the stake. I know I need short table practice. I can beat 80% of the people in any game I've been in recently, but that is not good enough to cash. That also tells me I’m playing too tight..

The long term plan is keep playing poker, gaining experience, reading books, and reading on 2+2. At two books a month, in a year I will have finished my reading list including reading the good ones more than once (and will, of course, have a new list). And by then I will either be a solid poker player, or have enough sense to go back to Blackjack and admit this is not my game. It took me more than 4 months and cost more than a grand to learn either of my other two games.

I could use some advice on the short term plan. It would be nice to stop the bleeding.

I would also be interested in hearing from some of our better players: How long did it take you to get to a level where you were winning consistently?

(Probable answers: 1)“About a week and a half!”, 2) “My mother taught me poker while she was breast feeding me”, 3) “I was a poker player in a previous life, and was born this way”).

Thx in advance.

Doc

Ps: After the SNG tonight I entered the $3+0 on Stars. Report follows. Further comment at end of report.
__________________________________________________ ___________
PokerStars Tournament #880579, No Limit Hold'em
Super Satellite
Buy-In: $3.00
1459 players
Total Prize Pool: $4377.00
Target Tournament #839639
9 tickets to the target tournament

Tournament started - 2004/01/28 - 22:30:00 (ET)

Dear DrPhysic,

You finished the tournament in 6th place.
You qualified to play in Tournament #839639 and are automatically registered for it.
See Tournament #839639 Lobby for further details.

In addition a $188.22 award has been credited to your Real Money account.

You earned 235.76 tournament leader points in this tournament.
For information about our tournament leader board, see our web site at
http://www.pokerstars.com/tlb_tournament_rankings.htm

Congratulations!
Thank you for participating.
__________________________________________________ ____________

The $188 helps both the budget and the confidence level. However, the questions in this post are still valid. I would appreciate thoughts from my friends at 2+2.

Doc

[Stagemusic]

Doc.

Been there and done that. I think we all have. Here is a copy of a little bit of my story, hope it helps.

[ QUOTE ]
For most of us, Poker will NEVER be anything but a hobby. A very lucrative hobby indeed but still, just a hobby. 99.9% of the people that play poker are break even or overall losing players (for our more literal posters...don't quote me on the %, it was just an illustration) who like to play for a chance to stick their hand 6" or so up the Golden Gooses *** and grab an egg or two. It took me 6 months and MANY (mostly small) deposits to make my first cash out of any site. Luckily, I have a good job and could afford to play by making a deposit or two a month. Well, I just consider that my tuition, sort of like starting a new hobby like golf. You have to buy the equipment and pay the green fees to really learn the game. Well, wonder upon wonders, I DID improve. I haven't made a deposit in a few months and have cashed out numerous times since then. Now Poker is more than a game that I love to play. It has become a source for a decent secondary income. I still love to play thank God. I think that if it became a job I would miss the fun.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have only been playing and studying for 3 months. It took me 6 before I stopped the deposits and started the cashouts. I went down to the microlimits more times than I like to think about. Just hang in there. Your enthusiasm for the game and willingness to invest in yourself will payoff. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[William]

Hi Doc,

Very nice post, and honest, wich is something rare in a poker player.
What you ask is very difficult to deliver, a guideline of how to become a succesfull poker player can't be found, as the only genuine answer in poker, no matter what the question or the situation is "IT DEPENDS"
That beeing said, you can get good advices and some tips, but the real truth, will still be that it depends on yourself, some have it, some don't. It's that simple.

First, you have to be aware that 98% of all players are losing players, or at best "rocks" with a very small profit.
You have also to understand that when you are a constant loser, you normally don't rush to your computer and write about it, so here at 2+2 you will find those 2% that can win, wish to get better or at least have a good undertsanding of the game. You cannot allways rely on what they write, human nature is such that we like to be admired at what we do and much too often, posters will tell a small white lie to be regarded as what they wish they were instead of what they really are. If you are able to admit that you are not playing well in certain situations, and are able to see wich errors you have made and where you need to improve your game, you are halfway there.

It's easy to learn opening hands, betting patteerns and so on, but poker is a game of emotions. Table feeling is crucial(even online) deception is a powerful weapon and image is important, but everything changes all the time, as you will meet different players at different tables. Nobody can dominate every table; you must be able to se that you are not comfortable at some tables and willing to get out of there, not seeing it as a defeat, but as a strategic decision to protect yourself.
You must be able to manipulate your oponents, better than they manipulate you. Allways open/raising 3xBB for example, as many advocate is certainly fine. Knowing that other players expect that from you and changing the pattern often enough to create confusion it's better. Not showing fear is essential.

When I started playing poker, some 10 years ago, one of the better players told me that it takes 4 years to become a winning player. I am not saying that it applies to everybody, so please spare me the wonder stories, I don't really care, (I mean reader's stories, not your's,Doc).
In my case, it was quite accurate. I broke even after about a year(and it costed substantially more than 1000$, so if you can keep it that low, consider yourself lucky) but after that I didn't consider winning a 1000 or so a month like real succes. The way I knew that I had reached a point where poker had becomed an income for life, was when I could seat at a table, knowing that unless something real bad happened that day, I would walk out of that room with somebody's else money. Until that moment, I would allways hope to run well that day or would feel uncertain, fear certain players and so on. Suddenly, all that changed, I still knew that certain people should be avoided, but I also felt that I was feared more than I feared them.
That can only be achieved with experience. You have to be patient and put the required amount of hours at the tables (or in front of your scream).

Now, as I have said before, 98% of the population could put all the hours of the world at the tables, they would still lose, so you have to be honest with yourself. If you are one of the chosen ones, results will follow, and in your case, when I read about the satellites to the sunday tourney, I think all good things will come on due time.

Find out where you feel most comfortable. ring games, tourneys, sng's or wathever. That should be your source of income while you get better at the rest. Analyze your game and define the areas where you feel unsecure (for ex. heads-up) be aware of it and try to improve experimenting a little. Eventually you will find the style that suits you at that precise are of the game, and it will just be a question of practice. Then you will find out that another area of your game needs improvement and will work on that and so on.
It is clever to become a good player at different forms of poker. Ring games, tourneys, but also different variations of poker; omaha, stud, H/L games, etc... this is important because if you allways play the same, you will soon burn out, get bored, and then it becomes difficult to stay focused and win. If you can manage at different games, you can play something else here and there and it will feel like a nice change of pace. You can also play something you find amusing at a cheap level, and just have a good time without endangering your bankroll or play a tourney for the fun of it. Again, only you can now what you need.

I am not the kind that begins his posts with " geee, I have just won this or that" but I will this time talk a little about my results, as an example of what I am saying.
I stink at limit and when i play stud, my brain stops functionning. My long term plan is of course to improve that, but I have allways done quite well at tournaments and NL/PL games. When I started playing at Stars, I saw these huge tourneys with several hundreds participants. I thought the luck factor must be astronomical and I should consider myself lucky to ever make a final table. I ended winning the first one I played,and from september to december I have won 17 of them(5-100$ buy-in), plus all the 2. 3. etc... places. So if you can, results will just follow, naturally. It also turned out that playing so many tourneys was very stressing, and in the long run, less rewarding than playing sng's and ring games, so now I don't play them so often anymore. But again, I got burned out, and maybe I will soon feel like playing tourneys again.

Doc, many more things can be said, and I will too, unless I can see that the thread deteriorates and then of course why should I bother? I'll be happy to answer any questions you and other may have and I will get back with more comments/ideas.
What works for me doesn't necessarly works for others, but we can all get better if we understand how the other players think.

Take care,
William

[AleoMagus]

This year has not been great for me either. After becoming confident in my ability to beat $10+1 sngs at Party, I decided that the new year would be a nice time to make my jump to the next level. Well, the $30+3s have not been going so well and after taking about a $250 loss (and me not being very rich in the first place), I have decided to move back down again.

I recently posted about this in the $10+1 vs 30+3 opinions thread, and still find myself thinking about it. I know I am good enough to beat that game. Or, I guess I don't know, but I really thought that I was.

I wonder a lot also about the posts claiming a $20/hr win rate. I have no doubt that some players on here can do it, but at other times I am sceptical. To be honest, when it started to become clear a few months ago that I was winning at all, I did a little dance for joy everyday. When it became clear that I could make as much as $5/hr I did an even bigger dance for joy. I'll never work for minimum wage again! That sounds silly to some who never have worked for minimum wage, or who could go get a $20/hr job in a minute, but I'm not so sure that I can (I majored in Philosophy and still have a semester and a half to finish my degree).

Since Nov 17, poker has been my only source of income and I was seriously underfunded to begin this venture. My goal was simply to make $4/hr. Again, I know that sounds silly but I was playing poker and things could only get better, right?

Well, this past three weeks has been painful. I am not as good as I thought I was (yes I am, yes I am, yes I am...), and I have now cut into half my bankroll as a result of my little $30+3 decision.

What's more, I am discovering that playing poker for minimum wage is not much fun. twice now, I have not left the house for over four days and I find that my bathing frequency has gone down. This has not been glamourous and feels a lot like work. Furthermore, baking donuts and flipping burgers never runs the risk of losing money.

I should start a business where all my employees make hourly wage +/- 15hrs wages standard deviation at the end of the day. "Uh Oh Bob, pretty unlucky today. Looks like you owe me again. Good job though"

Oh well. I am getting off track from your original post and just venting about this new "life" of mine.

As for a strategy, I am trying to write a short summary of my general $10+1 playing strategy. To be honest, it is almost robotic at this point and requires no creativity at all. I just follow a plan. That will not work at the higher levels but I know it works there. Be patient then and I will post it one day soon. I'd be interested to hear what the good players have to say about it.

I will say this also. Sometimes, at the low limits, I think reading too much and listening too much to what the good players say here can actually HURT your game. It is not that it is wrong, but I think that playing hands their way sometimes requires more skill than we all have.

Take hands like A9s-A2s or small suited connectors. Good players can make these hands +EV because they are good players. I want to be a good player, but more than this, I want to be a winning player. As a result, these hands almost never play for me. In a NL ring game, I play about 20 hands and nothing else. The other hands can have the potential for +EV, but I just don't play them well enough. I like hands that make my decisions for me (at least at this stage of my development).

I read an article once about how a player will often experience worse results as he/she begins to learn more as they cannot properly apply the info. You may be in the unique position of starting where others only get after a couple years. I don't really know.

Anyways, I liked your post.

Regards,
Brad S

[Stagemusic]

William,

Great post. Glad to see that the learning curve is there for all of us. Your willingness to give something back to the poker community is commendable. Thank you.

[Wayward]

I'm still learning (as this is only being my 3rd post), but one piece of advice that I have to offer is not to play ring games at stars. I started out on stars approx. three years ago and had basically only played there.

As I began lurking here, I read about party and other sites being full of fish and stars being a "rock garden." I didn't think there could be that big of a difference, but eventually i decided to try out Party. I couldn't believe the hands that people would play on party, I had never seen that on any level on stars (including a few trips to the .05/.10 tables).

I still play stars for the sit and go's, but I highly advise trying another site for ring games, I think you will be very happy with your decision.

[Stoneii]

Hi Doc

How refreshing. It looks to me like we got online at a similar time. I haven't invested the same amount of time/money in the books you have although I did ask Santa for the TOP and Tournie play for advanced...(which I'm waiting to crack the combination to before reading!!) . I've also got Helmutts book but skimmed it just now. There are a good few others as well on my list but if I have my way this is a hobby for keeps and there's no rush.

Anyway, I don't know my ratio of SnG wins/losses. I'm doing better now but there are/were a few occassions where I logged in half cut after a series of wins at $5/$10 and even $20 single table events, thought I was God's gift to poker, upped the stakes and got my backside kicked back down again (deservedly so). Woke up to find I'd handed back 2-3-4 weeks worth of dollar profits and more. Did this twice before realising that
a) I was falling asleep losin money until the wee hours
b) Poker was'nt ever going to be my wifes first love!!
c) I had to dig out the visa card yet again!!

Anyway, have now broken even in cash in account (bar $10)thanks to a 4th place in a $10 PL tournie recently where I cashed $180 and a few more modest wins in SnG's again. I think this time I'm happy to play at the $10 level and pay some more dues as my bankroll now will tolerate a bigger run of losses. I will also have a dig at the satellites/super satellites once in a while if I have moved ahead of my starting blocks to take the loss.

I do currently have a free entry into this weekends $200+$15 NL on stars and there are times when I'd be tempted to take the tournie dollars (which gives me around 10 entries into $20 SnG's) or obviously around 20 in my current level.

Obviously we all play to, as some other 2+2'er put it so succintly, "stick ones arm as far up the golden gooses rear end as possible and fetch out one of it's eggs" but given that my chances of placing are hugely slim (not just on level of experience but also 700-800+ entrants) unless cards run over me, has anyone any thoughts on that too (taking tournie dollars v entering big tournie?).

Doc, I also think confidence is not to be underestimated in terms of winning/losing. At the same time I got online I discovered there was a local charity B&M game where it's £12 to buy in, there are about 60-80 entrants and top x places gets a little cash or a modest prize and a place at a yearly final where you can win a trip to Vegas etc etc and entry into a satellite for the biggy. I've found there are still a massive amount of entrants play really really really loose and taking a second and a third in these has really boosted the confidence of an ordinary player! Now when I go to play most know me by name and it's a lovely and confidence building (poker wise) feeling [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Oh, nearly forgot, sorry for the waffle, but I also watched a few ring games (live and online) and I simply don't play them, to me that's where the real tricky players play and my modest bankroll just would not survive. There are some skilled players here and also not so skilled players that have huge bankrolls and a disregard (lack of need?) for money that can simply buy me out a lot of the time. I only play (and have an interest in) tournaments.

I know it'll turn around for you, I think any form of recognition there is a weakness to be examined is where the leak gets plugged but I always write to take my thoughts very lightly.

Good Luck

stoneii

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't believe the hands that people would play on party, I had never seen that on any level on stars

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this is a delicate subject. Do you want to make some fast money or do you want to become a good player AND make some money(you, know, the story about teaching a man how to fish instead og giving him a fish).

I personally don't like to play at a table with too many fishes. Poker really becomes gambling at that level and I seriously doubt the long term value of that learning experience.

When I play at Stars, hold AK and the flop comes A74, I know i have trapped someone holding AJ or AQ; at party, I am terrified of all 2 cards combinations oponents could be holding (see my post in the internet forum about 2 party hands) here

A combination of both sites is perhaps a good idea.

I allways liked this saying " You can't get wise with the sucker"

Take care,
William

[juris]

Great posts, and great replies, especially William's, which I enjoyed reading very much.

I for one am a novice player, and never intend to go pro. I play much less than most here (maybe 20 hours/month 1 table with some tourneys). I did not start out great, but slowly realized certain hands simply can't be played and how important position is. With experience comes knowledge of studying opponents and knowing what to do after the flop and beyond.

Playing smarter, not more, has resulted in a nice couple of wins, but if you take out a second place win on a UB $50 multi I would be pretty much even for the last year.

It's been said a lot, but the easiest way to ENJOY playing poker is to play within your limits. I am a $3-6 player and have found myself not enjoying myself as much at $5-10 because I get nervous. So I stay at $3-6. Sounds simple, right? I read many stories, even on 2+2, where egos and a short winning streak make people want to jump for the "quick hit." That's fine for some, but when it swings the other way and mood swings hit, you can get yourself in trouble.

My general premise is that I have a certain amount a year in my budget that goes to my poker hobby. If I lose, and I have, I'm done for the month. When I win, I offset 50% into a slush fund and play with 50%. This 50% is usually what I will use to play in some tournaments. When I hit the money in the tournament, my wife and I go out for a nice dinner, we buy a couple CD's, or something we wouldn't normally afford (the UB tourney I mentioned before resulted in a very expensive and awesome digital camera with all the bells and whistles).

I've got 10 poker books or so, and love the game. But sign me up for the rookie camp who went the first seven months or so not able to play in any given month because the budgeted funds were in some other 2+2's account. Patience, discipline, and money management are the keys for enjoying the game for those of us who aren't planning on going pro or making a living off this.

Of course, that doesn't mean I'm not competitive. Every time I play I play to win. This forum (long time lurker before posting) has been wonderful in helping my game, and the last 6 months I've been able to play whenever I want in any given month and accumulated a nice little slush fund. But last night I gave away 15 BB in about 1/2 hour and shut it down b/c I could tell I was starting to go away from how I know I should play. Sometimes that's as important as anything else in saving some money to fight another day.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

How long did it take you to get to a level where you were winning consistently?

If you asked me this at the beginning of November I would've answered "about one year." I had been winning consistently at Party 3/6 and had been regularly putting cash in my bank account. Unfortuantely, at that time, I needed to tap a good percentage of my online bankroll for unforeseen expenses. My mistake was in not dropping down immediately. I continued to play 3/6 on a very short roll and the inevitable downswing hit when I could least afford it. I took stock and refocused my efforts. I began to see that I had my biggest edge at the 2-table SNG's on 'Stars, and at the beginning of the year set-up a plan to start at the $10 level and work my bankroll back up.

To make a long story short, I'm not sure I'm a "consistent" winner yet, but my banrkroll is 3x what it was on 1/1/04, and I learn more about the game every day.

Still a work in progress.

I could use some advice on the short term plan.

Since SNG's are your focus, try to see if there are any holes in your game plan. Mine for 2-tables is simple:

1. Early on, don't bleed away chips out of position, but be alert to take advantage of opportunities when they arise. It's nice to double up early, but you don't have to.

2. As your table gets down to 7 players begin focusing on how you can make it to the final table with at least 15x BB. Have a good strategy to shift gears when you get 6, and then 5-handed.

3. After consolidation your tactics depend on your chip position and where the bigger and smaller stacks are sitting. Don't assume the bigger stacks are the better players. At this point, raw chip accumulation is not as crucial as in the middle stages of a multi.

4. Watch the other players as you get close to the bubble. I still try to force the action, but can get real conservative if I think others are impatient and likely to make mistakes.

5. Once you're in the money, attack, attack, attack. (unless some obvious stack-size differential screams otherwise)

A lot of this is probably pretty standard, but to my mind, one of the keys to success is the ability to accurately assess the dynamics of the table and shift gears accordingly.

And of course, you have to be willing to bust out without regret. Just not too often. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]