AJo, KJo, KQo, and JQo, the 4 biggest money wasters at micro

[me454555]

I see more posts about these hands than any others on the forum. Just today there was a post about QTo that made no sense. So in regards to that, I feel I should add my 2 cents to the discussion.

These hands are hard to play b/c they are weak hands that look strong and when they hit the flop, they can leave you with some very tough decisions.

1) These hands play well against fewer opponents so they should only be play from late position after 1 limper max.

2) These hands should be raised pf if your going to play them b/c it not only gives you the illusion of strenth, but also gives you a chance to eliminate the blinds and get to the flop with fewer opponents.

Rule of thumb: If you don't feel comfortable raising a hand like this pf w/the position you have, you probobly shouldn't be playing it.

At the micro limits, it is even more important that you play these hands aggressive pf to limit the field b/c your opponets will sometimes play anything if you don't. When you hit the flop and get top pair good kicker against 3 or 4 oppoents, you have a much greater chance of getting outdrawn on the river than if it were HU.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings about these hands. Please feel free to comment away.

[rkiray]

What you said is true for KTo and QTo. The hands you list are all stonger. In particular AJo and KQo are much stronger.

[me454555]

not really, they need help from the flop to win and aside from AJ they are all vulnerable to overcards when they flop a pair. KTo and QTo shouldn't be played period unless your trying to steal a blind

[csuf_gambler]

this is why u play AJ


Hand #769181-10809 at Atlanta ($.50/$1 Hold'em Kill)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 02/Jan/04 20:25:50

MikeG_Wa is at seat 0 with $19.75.
bankheadduo is at seat 1 with $19.20.
talia is at seat 2 with $61.25.
marcus2121 is at seat 3 with $40.
Studdam is at seat 4 with $90.30.
mirko_crocop is at seat 5 with $49.50.
immanuel is at seat 6 with $14.55.
Marty Ward is at seat 7 with $14.65.
1BossHog is at seat 8 with $46.50.
Brooke7399 is at seat 9 with $36.50.
The button is at seat 8.
The full kill button is at seat 1.
*** This is a kill game. ***

Brooke7399 posts the small blind of $.25.
MikeG_Wa posts the big blind of $.50.
bankheadduo posts the kill blind of $1.

MikeG_Wa: -- --
bankheadduo: -- --
talia: -- --
marcus2121: -- --
Studdam: -- --
mirko_crocop: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
immanuel: -- --
Marty Ward: -- --
1BossHog: -- --
Brooke7399: -- --

Pre-flop:

bankheadduo checks. talia folds. marcus2121 folds.
Studdam folds. mirko_crocop calls. immanuel folds.
Marty Ward folds. 1BossHog folds. Brooke7399
raises to $2. MikeG_Wa folds. bankheadduo calls.
mirko_crocop calls.

Flop (board: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]):

Brooke7399 bets $1. bankheadduo calls. mirko_crocop
calls.

Turn (board: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]):

Brooke7399 checks. bankheadduo checks. mirko_crocop
bets $2. Brooke7399 raises to $4. bankheadduo
folds. mirko_crocop re-raises to $6. Brooke7399
re-raises to $8. mirko_crocop calls.

River (board: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]):

Brooke7399 bets $2. mirko_crocop raises to $4.
Brooke7399 calls.



Showdown:

mirko_crocop shows J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
mirko_crocop has J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]: full house, aces full of jacks.
Brooke7399 mucks cards.
(Brooke7399 has A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].)


Hand #769181-10809 Summary:

$1 is raked from a pot of $33.50.
mirko_crocop wins $32.50 with full house, aces full of jacks.

[Danenania]

Haha, good joke Csuf_gambler. I hope it's a joke. AJ versus AK is a recipe for distaster most of the time. Plus yours was suited which is quite different.

[me454555]

1) that was AJs not AJo
2) My point was that AJo is still a good hand but it has to be played in the right situation.

[Brian]

Hi me,

AJo is profitable in any position in all but the toughest of games. I hope you aren't suggesting that people start chucking it. I believe KQo is profitable in every position except the early ones. KJo and QJo are much weaker hands, but are still definitely profitable in late position. All of their suited counterparts are very good hands.

I don't think that these hands necessarily have to be raised pre-Flop if you are going to play them. In fact, while I would advise against raising them in late position after many limpers, I wouldn't advise chucking them unless you are up against strong limpers.

[ QUOTE ]
At the micro limits, it is even more important that you play these hands aggressive pf to limit the field b/c your opponets will sometimes play anything if you don't. When you hit the flop and get top pair good kicker against 3 or 4 oppoents, you have a much greater chance of getting outdrawn on the river than if it were HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily agree with your advice of always raising these hands. If you raise with KQ, are you happy that someine with a trashy Q5 folded? Also, while these hands will certainly win more times heads-up than multi-way, when they DO win in multiway, the pots are much larger.

Normally when I play these hands, I do raise with them. But there are certainly advantages to just limping with them, and in some games it is correct to just limp with them upfront. These are games where raising usually won't narrow the field/you are up against a bunch of loose passives. Here, you'd rather keep the pot as small as possible. It's a case of giving up immediete equity (i.e. what you get when trashy hands call your raises) in exchange for longer term EV by manipulating the pot size.

-Brian

[rkiray]

You are incrediably wrong. There is no comparison between AJo, KQo and KTo, QTo. I always play the first two for one bet. I agree the AJo is probably tied with JJ as the most discussed hand on these forums, with KQo not too far behind. But the issue with AJo and KQo is whether to limp or raise with them. I usually only raise with them first in during very tight games or in late position. Others play them more aggresively.

If you don't believe me check out HPFAP. AJo, KQo are group four. KJo, JQo are group 5. KTo, QTo are group 6. There is a large difference between each group.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
All of their suited counterparts are very good hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
i never fully understood this. if you make a flush with suited hands around only 5% of the time (assuming you always go to the river) how much stronger is one than the other? not trying to be critical....just asking a genuine question because i think the suited-ness might be overrated.

-tpir

[Nottom]

If I have KQo and flop top pair after putting in less than 3 bets preflop, I am always happy. I am more than happy to play this hand against a couple of you average micro-limit players. AJo is a bit worse but still solid, the only reason I rank it below KQ is because if you flop a J you are that much more likely to not have top pair.

KJo and QJo are certainly where you start to get into trouple if you aren't careful.