who pushes allin AA or KK preflop at party even with ~2 SB in pot?

[NLfool]

I used to play this way and seemed to do much better this way. If I make even a medium size raise preflop and build a pot 1 person will flop a straight draw, another a flush draw, another top pair etc. And now I'm a slight underdog. After many bad beats I've gone back to pushing allin AA KK preflop even if the pot is 2 SB and though I pull the cardinal sin of stealing the blinds with AA. Seems to be most profitable this way or I may loose a big pot.

[HajiShirazu]

Usually this would be terrible but as we all know, you get enough calls at party by 44, A7o, and QJo to make this move profitable.

[Ulysses]

If you're doing this because you know there are players in the game that will call this with a pretty wide range of hands (ie: AJ/AQ/AK/pocket pair/suited broadway cards/etc.), then this is fine.

If you're doing this because you'd rather take down the blinds than contend w/ three players calling your 5xBB raise, it's terrible.

I have a standard open. In the 200NL, this usually starts at 15 for me and becomes 20-25 as stacks get bigger. I'll increase this by 5 or so for each limper in front of me. And I'll do the same thing w/ AQ/AK/AA/TT/etc. Post-flop, of course, is driven by the board and how many callers.

I pretty much have just two scenarios where I'll go all-in pre-flop w/ AA. One is when there has been a raise or two in front of me that I'm confident is from a real hand and wil likely call me all-in. The other is if there's a fair amount of limpers (or maybe min-raise and callers) and I'm in one of the blinds. I find that an all-in in that spot often gets called by a pretty wide range of hands.

[crockpot]

i would be amazed if you could concoct a situation where you're a money underdog with your aces as the current best hand on the flop, because so many draws are out against you, unless one player has a massive draw like an open ended straight flush.

remember, you don't mind having a player go all-in against you on the flop when he only has eight outs. what you do mind is not collecting the maximum from someone who believes any pocket pair, AK, AQ, etc. is worth an all-in call preflop. if you're at a table with people like this, the immediate all-in can work for you.

[_And1_]

Ulysses, think you nailed it pretty much. Right on the money.

[ML4L]

Hey biggestfish,

If the pot is already raised, I shove-in with AA and KK right there and get called a ridiculous percentage of the time with all kinds of hands. Depending on the opponent, I try to do this with QQ too.

If the pot is not yet raised, I just make my standard opening raise for the game. Yeah, sometimes it comes down bad. But, two points:

1) You'll never learn how to play overpairs if you always shove-in preflop.

2) Even in the hands of the worst postflop player, AA and KK are worth a lot more than the blinds...

So, don't feel bad about shoving-in on Party, but do it when you think you'll get paid, not just in an attempt to protect your hand...

ML4L

[tedtodd]

i agree with u bigfish- i play mostly NL.25/.50- and there are poor players that shouldn't be calling- yet tend to always out draw me.
but it also sucks to buy the blinds with a 4xBB raise.

i typically look for extra-tight tables and when i do raise pre-flop they ALL fold- the only time i go all-in is if there is a reasonable raise or re-raise ahead of me.

this sounds dumb, but if i dont get the raise in front of me- and it is an extra tight table- i'll limp in, to see the flop(if nobody here is playing trash), evaluate the risk, and then raise a reasonable amount to get a decent caller. alot of times they assume from teh limp that i'm betting the top pair.
if i do raise pre-flop, they all bail as soon as i bet the flop, so i tend to steal hands by doing this with slightly weaker hands than AA,KK,QQ.

[ZeroGee]

From your post, you said that you're doing this because you'd rather take the blinds than risk losing a big pot.

If that's the case, your username is apt.

If you think that you keep getting sucked out on with your high pairs... what would you rather play? Underdogs that suck out on other people?

You're probably playing too high of stakes if this bothers you, or are losing overall because of other leaks in your game. AA has the highest EV of any hand in the game. There's a reason for that -- it makes the most money. In fact, despite the odds of you "losing" more <i>hands</i> against more opponents, you win far more <i>money</i>. With AA, bet the maximum amount you think your opponents will call, no more, no less (of course, taking consistency considerations into concern). If they are stupid enough to call your all-ins with AK or JJ, for instance, then if you know they have those hands, by all means, just go on all in. But don't you dare do that to take the blinds because you're afraid of what the flop may bring.

Your chips are your instruments. You can make beautiful music by knowing when to move them forward and pull them back. Don't just take your foot and bang on the base drum the whole time. Finesse is success.

[NLfool]

of course I don't want to pull the cardinal sin and just take the blinds but of course I get called enough times yesterday by 22, 66, and 1010 for ~45 big blinds where this at least to me is just as profitable or maybe a little less profitable but alot less variance. I've done the $20 raise and in the PL games I prefer to limp as there is always a min raise and few callers then as the pot is growing I can make a huge reraise. In NL the limp play isn't as +EV as there are so many limpers. I've done it Ulyss way but this just makes for less variance for me and I prefer it that way. Though I do have to change to my multi, intertops accounts as even the fish catch on to this.