BB Decision in Family Pot

You are in a very loose, passive 3-6 HE game. Some, but not a lot, of pre-flop raising, which so far has generally been equated with quality hands.


Nine players seated at the moment, everyone limps in, including the SB. You look down and see Ah-Th. Who votes for raising out of the BB with this holding, in this situation? Who votes for just calling?


My decision, my thoughts, and the results, later in the show.

My answer depends on what the post flop play is like. Will I get paid off if I make a flush?


If the play postflop is weak tight, raise.


If the play postflop is loose passive, check.

I would not raise. Your ace with a ten kicker is probably good if you flop an ace because anyone with ace-king or ace-queen might have raised preflop. Nevertheless, I see raising as a high variance play not a big ev move one way or the other. Your raise will not eliminate any players nor will it give you any free cards once the boardcards start coming since you are out of position with lots of opponents.

Good points. I think the key here is position. What would you recommend on the button? I think a raise here is more valid since you might get a freecard on the flop for longshot draws such as backdoors/gutshots/overcards.


What about cutoff? Late-middle?


Sincerly, Andreas

If you are certain to get nine-way action, I would certainly raise. It is somewhat likely that if anyone had a better ace, they may have raised, depending exactly what they held and what their position was, so I would not necessarily worry about being dominated. Having a hand like that in a nine way pot screams out "this pot needs to be raised". You have a hand that is getting implied odds from the field, and has lots of ways to make a big hand, like a flush or straight. Also, you will sometimes win when you flop an ace. I would raise.


Dave in Cali

On the button, or late after everyone limped, it would clearly be a raise.


Jim does have a good point, raising is probably not much different EV wise than checking, but your variance is going to be higher if you raise.

S&M discuss this in the Loose games section of HFAP. Since your raise will not induce anyone to fold, it has the same EV as the check. It does however have the effect of making bad players later calls correct. For instance, suppose you flop a flush, the increased pot size makes the "two pair drawing for a boat" call correct (or closer to it).


kevin

I think, as Jim Brier points out, it doesnt matter too much what you do EV wise. Raising would be the higher varience play.

But since it's so close I think the points you're making should be the consideration whether to check or raise.


Very good points!


Regards

I would vote for just calling in the BB with this hand against the family. As stated, raising will not increase your EV, but it will increase your variance as well as the pot odds for whoever's chasing (redraws or not.) If you do flop your four-flush or even a gutshot Broadway, you should be getting enough odds to see the turn without the preflop raise.


When I get a semi-strong hand like this in the BB, I usually call so the other players won't put me on a strong hand (the blinds always get dealt trash, right?) Being out of position, I would like to see the flop "for free" and then decide what to do. With everyone in, the flop will hit somebody. If you like the flop (top pair/two pair) this puts you in a perfect position to checkraise. If you really like the flop (four-flush or trips) you can simply bet out or check and see where the action goes...then decide what to do. If you love the flop (flopped Broadway/no flush draws or flush,) then you can play in whatever way you think will get the most money in the pot (either bet out and hope you get raised from a late position player, or check and hope someone early bets and gets a lot of callers...then you can raise and get them to throw more money in...either on the flop or on the turn.)


If I was on the button, raising would be in order. If I was in the cutoff, raising would definitely be in order...to buy the button if nothing else. In the blind, with everyone coming, I usually give the "oh, I can actually play THIS hand?" check and see what flops.

the hand is easier to play(get away from) for me when i just call