What does Commerce owe this guy?

[Dan Druff]

Interesting situation came up at my Commerce 80-160 Hold 'Em table yesterday. It made me think about the fine line between expected dealer mistakes and bad customer service.

It was about 7:00 in the morning, and a lousy dealer who was making lots of mistakes was dealing at the table. Player A, a 30-ish white guy, three-bet on the button in a multi-way pot. Turned out the guy had K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The flop came 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. It checked around to Player A, who didn't act. The idiot dealer didn't bother to wait for Player A to act, so he burned a card and was about to deal the turn. At that point, Player A shouted, "Whoa! I didn't act yet!", and the dealer apologized and halted.

Player A bet, everyone folded, until the action reached the cutoff, an Asian guy in his 20s. We'll call him Player B. Player B raised, Player A three-bet, and Player B four-bet. Player A just called. Turned out that Player B was ahead at this point, holding Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Here's where it gets interesting. The dealer accidentally burned a SECOND card (forgetting he had already burned), and dealt 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], a meaningless card. Player B bet again, Player A called, and at that point, somebody noticed that there were too many burn cards down. The dealer acknowledged his mistake, and a floorman was called over. Since there had been action on the turn, the floorman (correctly) stated that everything had to stand, and that the dealer should burn and turn the river, as normal.

The dealer was Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], again a meaningless card. Player B turned over his flush, and Player A frustratedly showed his K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. This, of course, begged the question as to whether or not the double-burn mistake changed the outcome of the hand. Players reached into the muck, and indeed, the turn SHOULD have been A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]!

Player A, who is usually pretty mild-mannered, hit the ceiling, and after loudly lamenting his situation, demanded to see a supervisor. Player A felt that, as a regular in the casino, he deserved an excuse from the $24/hr collection for the rest of his session. The supervisor disagreed, and instead offered him a single half-hour refund of $12. Player A reluctantly accepted this, but told everyone that he was going to write a complain letter to Commerce about this.

Player A is indeed a regular who I have seen many times before at the 80 game, and tends to play extremely long sessions when he's there. It is true that this incompetent dealer's mistake cost this player well over $2000. Under these circumstances, should Commerce compensate him in some way such as providing a collection-free night for him? What obligation should a card room have to a player, when it comes to providing competent service by the dealers? Was Commerce's refusal to provide this regular -- who has obviously paid thousands in collection this year -- bad customer service, or were they more than generous with the $12 refund?

Personally, I believe Commerce should have given him some token gesture more than a lousy $12, to show their appreciation for a regular who got screwed. While bad beats are not the dealer's fault, dealer mistakes which change the outcome of a hand indeed are. At stakes such as 80-160, this shouldn't happen.

If you were the supervisor, what would you have done? If you were the player, would you go back to Commerce?

[Ed Miller]

My opinion is that the floor's ruling was correct. The double burn didn't actually affect the hand in any way... that is, a random card is a random card.

As for whether the guy should be refunded... it's up to Commerce to decide how important it is to keep a superstitious patron happy. But I think refunding him $12 is perfectly reasonable, frankly. He deserves $0.

A dealer error that costs a player money is one where he, say, pushes the pot to the wrong player. Or one where he isn't paying attention and allows a player to take a shot (like, say, a player checks, and his opponent checks behind, and then the first player throws out a bet... if the dealer isn't paying attention and claims that the first player didn't check... that error costs the second player money). Burning two cards is not an error that affects either player monetarily.

The real error was failing to protect the muck and letting rabbit-hunting, silly players fish out a card.

[Aces McGee]

[RollaJ]

He is owed nothing, I have been on the raw end of a dealer F-up numerous times and it always sucks! This past weekend I was on the right side of an f-up which was cool, but I was still pissed at the dealer and didnt tip. This player is not owed a thing, if he feels however he should be reimbursed, he should not tip that dealer for the next 2000 hands he wins with that person

[trillig]

I've seen a few hands become VOID before, Might have been fair to them to just refund all the bets and start over?

Ever been dealt 3 cards in Texas Hold'Em? LOL! Yup... the entire table was dealt 3 and she was about to go for 4!

Mistakes happen though all the time, to me it's always at the blackjack table, and the dealers mistakes are usually void and I get the next card and 90% of the time I get the worst of it, as the church lady says: HOW CONVENIENT!

-t

[CrackerZack]

[ QUOTE ]
The real error was failing to protect the muck and letting rabbit-hunting, silly players fish out a card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. He should've said the cards are random and mixed everything together letting everyone wonder. Turning over the card was moronic.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
The real error was failing to protect the muck and letting rabbit-hunting, silly players fish out a card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like hitting it on the head. How on earth did anyone allow a player to reach into the muck to pull the burn cards out? That was probably even more of an injustice than anything else. If someone reached into the muck to pull a hand you mucked out to see what you folded, you'd be pretty upset. When the dealer allowed this to happen, he opened a can of worms.

I could see how the Commerce would somehow compensate this player because he puts alot of money into the game. But alot of this nonsense would be avoided if everyone would just leave the muck alone.

Joe

P.S. The dealers should pay attention, especially in a game when the stakes are this high.

[J.A.Sucker]

The Commerce should comp the guy some Rolaids the next time he gets some of that dog-slop food that they give away out there. Seriously, mistakes happen, and that's just life.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Dan:

The decision of the floor was correct. Notice that the cards could just have easily been reversed (in order) and the extra burn could have helped the player with the pair of kings.

However, from a club point of view, sometimes players, even those who regularly play high limit and should know better, don't understand the basic underlying probabilities of the play. If that's the case, and given the fact that the dealer was as you state generally incompetent, they might want to offer the unhappy player some sort of other compensation. But they do that to make sure they keep a customer, not because the decision was bad.

By the way, I understand that there is now no other place in LA to play $80-$160. If that's correct, the player will probably be back anyway.

Best wishes,
Mason

[andyfox]

I agree with the general consensus that the player is owed nothing. And Mason's point is a good one: were there other 80-160 games spread regularly in town, the casino might have been more amenable to doing something for the player (not because he is owed anything, but because they want to keep him as a customer).

Dealers make mistakes. Whether the mistake cost player A or player B the pot is irrelevant. The bigger mistake was allowing the rabbit hunting.

Seems to me the quality of dealing at Commerce has gone downhill markedly over the past few months. I heard of a case where a player considering calling on the river in a big pot in the 80-160 stud game closed his eyes momentarily to think and his cards were mucked by the dealer. Far too many of the dealers do not pay sufficient attention to the game and the action.

Also, while it doesn't effect that 80-160 games where there are collection pots, the collection system installed in the top section last year has not speeded up play at all; there are still just as many discussions/disagreements about paying collection at collection time.