Do you make this call?

[Stagemusic]

It is rather late in a $20 5 person SNG at TGC. 3 people left, all in the money. 3rd place basically gets buy in back minus the rake. 2nd gets $10 more and 1st gets $50. Blinds are at 80/160 and I have about T1700 in second chip position by just a bit. I am in the BB and look down to find


9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Both opponents limp in. Flop comes

9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB checks. I bet T160...mistake?
Button raises to T320
SB folds
I call (I guess I was mezmerized by the straight/straight flush draw along with top pair which really didn't mean much)

I felt at this point that I was pretty much pot committed with only about T1200 left, a pretty good hand to draw to, and a pot that could move me into good position to win the thing. Wrong thinking? Comments.

Turn comes out a Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] For a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] board

I am thinking that I have all kinds of outs here.
Any 5 (4) (one of which gives me the straight flush)
Any T (4) (same as above)
Any [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (11) (am I miscounting here?)

I bet T640 (should I have went all in and gave my opp. something to really think about?) leaving me with just under T600 but it does double the minimum bet. Enemy just calls.

River brings the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] putting nothing on the board and a dagger through my heart [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I decide to try and fire out a bet in the hopes that my opponent was betting on a lower pair that he caught and hadn't improved. This was the most likely scenario in my opinion. Turns out I was partly right.

He calls and the cards turn over to show his QJ offsuit for the top pair and takes it down. No, I don't know his motivation for the calling and raising before the turn. He was the top stack with about T2400 or so before that hand. I ended up winning the tourney after a KK all in on my SB the very next hand put me back in the race. Second position guy was eliminated two hands later when my blind steal attempt with K10 was called by his 88 and a K comes on the turn. So I went into heads up play with about T1900 to opponents T3100. Heads up was pretty uneventful with me taking the lead on a TT against his AJ that didn't improve and me doubling through. 3 hands later it was over so I ended up pretty happy but that hand bothered me and I wanted some opinions.

[Bozeman]

After being raised on the flop, I would but it allin. You are only a dog to sets or made str8s, and even there you are only about 55:45 behind (worse for top str8, better for low str8). You are 60:40 ahead of top pair top kicker, and even two pair.

However, you don't want to have to call a bet on the turn, so unless you expect a turn check, you should push after being raised on the flop. There is almost 1000 chips in the pot, and you have ~1400 left, so allin works. Allin is correct because you do well against any hand, but you cannot be sure which card you want to see (you could be facing a higher 9, a higher flush draw, a higher str8/draw, two pair etc.), but you always are either ahead or have lots of outs.

As for your counting on the turn, you are off: 3 nonspade 5's, 3 nonspade 10's, 2 str8 flush cards, 7 other spades, for only 15 outs (+ possible 9's or 8's), so you become a dog to many hands when the turn misses you.

This is an awesome flop, but should be played to take the pot or get it allin. Your small bets and calls are the wrong way.

Craig

[juris]

Not sure how bad the blinds are eating you away, but with 3 left this to me is a simple, simple post flop all in. Open ended with four flush. Avoids all the problems you had with the turn card.

[PlayerA]

You forgot the 9's and 8's as outs to 2 pr or set (although the 8 could just be giving the enemy a straight). Anyhow, assuming your enemy has something like AA with no spade, you have a 21 outer. This is a heavy favorite with 2 cards to come. As draws go, it just doesn't get much better than this.

[Stagemusic]

Thanks for the comments. You guys hit on exactly what was bothering me. The fact that none of the outs hit shouldn't have mattered. I did miscount the outs but your counts made it even worse. I don't think that I agree totally with the post flop all in however, mostly because I really have an aversion to going all in on a draw, but that would depend on your knowledge of the opponent. That may be a hole I need to patch. Thanks again. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Scooterdoo]

On the flop I think you either are all-in or fold. Why? There is a very good chance you are drawing almost dead to a higher flush given his bet. He could also have the higher straight draw so if the straight came up you are dead. So by coming over the top of him all-in you can hopefully get him to fold his draw right there. It turns out he didn't have either draw but he most likely would have folded to your bet given what he had. I really don't think a fold would have been bad at all, even a better choice, given that I would be worried about the higher flush so wouldn't have thought as much of my hand as you did. Nice going on the King double-up. Now we'll look for a post by your opponent discussing how he lost to the king flop!

[redwings03]

Not so sure you were really on a draw? You had top pair. Did you think he had an over pair, two pair, or a set? What you had was the best hand at the time AND a draw. That is enough to lay some lumber with a significant BET and not pussyfoot around with it too much. I say if you are going to bet, THEN BET! You only would have wanted to invite him along with a small bet if you already had a made straight.

[Stagemusic]

I really don't think that 9's were going to get me very far but it was worth the bet at the time. But your point is well taken, thanks.

[Bozeman]

"I don't think that I agree totally with the post flop all in however, mostly because I really have an aversion to going all in on a draw, "

If you think this justifies your play here, you have a serious hole.

On this flop, you have two choices: commit your stack or fold to a bet. Against almost any opponent, committing is the much superior play, unless this is a situation where you can move way up the payscale by not playing (threehanded in a SNG is NOT this type of situation).

Why?

1) You can't be sure which cards help you
2) There are a lot of them
3) You are likely a favorite by the river (at worst a small dog), but you are not on any given street (except when you are already ahead)

The first bet doesn't need to be allin, but if you are reraised, calling is the worst option.

The salient points about this hand is that you have a flush draw, an open ended str8 draw, AND top pair, but no cards (except 5s,ts) give you the nuts. Because of the first conjunction, no one opponent can have a better hand and a better draw, so you have either a great draw to win or a significant, but vulnerable, lead. Because of the second factor, you can't be sure whether you hit or your opp. did.

Craig

[Stagemusic]

[ QUOTE ]
If you think this justifies your play here, you have a serious hole.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not justify, just giving my reasons. Believe me, after only playing steadily since May, I am wrong a lot. I also said that it was a hole that I needed to plug. I didn't post the hand just have everyone pat me on the back and say "nice job". I wanted to know what the top players on the forum had to say. Thank you for your comments. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]