I just can't bluff

[Guy McSucker]

Are these dumb bluffs? Stars 50c-$1 NLHE.

Limp in MP with QJ. Flop comes T9x, two spades. I have hearts. Guy to my right bets $2 into the pot of $5. I call, all behind fold, EP calls. Turn is a blank, checked to the guy to my right, he bets $2 again, I call, EP calls. River is a third spade. I missed, and the flush came in. Check, check. Oooh, looks like nobody hit the flush, and I must be marked with a drawing hand. I bet the pot.

Is that really really stupid? EP calls with unimproved pocket 4s.

Next case. 5-4 hearts in late position. This is a hand I like to raise for variety. Everyone folds to me so it looks like a good opportunity for my favourite dumbass play. I raise to $4. BB calls. Oh well.

Flop is A-K-4. I don't like it so much, but he checks to me and I can't help myself. I bet $8. He calls, and checks when a 9 comes. I check too. Last card is another K. He checks again. I decide to give it one last try and bet $12.
He calls with pocket 8s. Ah well, at least I have an image now.

Very next hand. I get KK. Great, maybe my image will work out for me. Folded to me, I make it $4. The SB, my friend from the previous hand, raises me all-in. That's what I wanted, so I call. Bad beat ensues.

Am I a dumbass? Or am I just grumpy because I got bad-beat on the third hand?

Guy.

[Acesover8s]

Hey guy,

As you know I'm not much of a NLHE player, but heres a few of my random thoughts.

On the first hand I think you waited too long. Regardless of the results of your bluff; when he bets small on the turn I would semi-bluff raise. It's going to be tougher for him to call a raise there than it is when he 'induces your bluff'

Also, I like to make a habit of betting 1/2 pot on the river. I can get away from my bluffs cheaper when called, and my legitimates get called a little more often. The key here is consistency and aware opponents.

On the second hand, sometimes they are just going to call and you might as well save your money for your value bets, like your KK later.

I find these hands interesting, because I have "Youcheck?Ibetitis".

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
Are these dumb bluffs? Stars 50c-$1 NLHE.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, in many ways, enough said.

Obviously, at least against these specific opponents, you should value bet a lot more loosely in the future.

The 88 call and especially the 44 call were pretty bad, most likely.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Zeno]

The noodle headed passive play is, I assume, typical of NL online small blind play? It sounds almost like a limit game in some respects. If the money doesn't mean much then bluffing means even less.

I have a hypothesis that these games, although somewhat useful, are in the long run bad for anyone that wants to play NL well - in terms of ingraining bad habits and thinking. That is my opinion of course, and I could be wrong. I have never played online so I may have just made a noodle head out of myself. So be it. It would not be the first time.

Of course if you are an adaptable player then the above may not apply, but warped or bad habits can be hard to break and become a real tax on your bankroll.

-Zeno

[Jon Matthews]

The bluff bets were a little big, they would certainly make me think that you don't want to be called and I would only fold the sort of hand you want me to (TPGK) if I thought you were a fairly tricky player...

I would have raised the turn in the 1st hand, I would have had the other guy on a draw and tried to deny him odds.

At higher stakes, the same sort of plays would probably have you winning the first 2 pots.

[Guy McSucker]

I think you have a point, Zeno. The longer I play, the worse I get, so there must be something up.

Thanks to everyone for responses. Thre more I think about it the more I hate the second example I posted. Having two goes at that pot was a serious mistake. And aces and Jon
are right that I should probably semibluff the first one. I'm getting a little shy of the semibluff because I hate getting raised off a draw to a real hand: I want to actually show down a winner one day soon! This is a mistake, so I am very grateful you pointed it out.

Guy.

[Jester999]

You and I play the same game for the same limits, Guy and as I move up it's also a skill I'm trying to incorporate. Also, this is my first shot at giving any advice at all so please bear that in mind.

I think we can discuss the merits and timing of your bluffs until we're blue in the face, but the bottom line is that your opponents in those situations are simply not savvy enough to pick up on what you're trying to do. When I was playing the lower limits (.1/.25 antes)it was all nuts and bolts. You could make a killing off people just calling off their money with kicker problems. At some point you've read enough and played enough to realize that bluffing is an integral part of a good NL player's game so you want to incorporate the skill so you start trying. I ran into the same things you did but have made a minor adjustment. If you play regularly (and it sounds as if you do) then you probably know who the better players are at your limits. Pick your spots against those guys and bluff them. They're smart enough to play your cards too and will get off a good hand. If I don't know the person, I won't bluff. If you have a solid table image they'll also be aware of that and it will help your bluffs.

[tewall]

The problem is with really poor players, you can be in a situation where you can put them on a hand, and you can be representing a hand they can't possibly beat, and they will call you anyway. They're not savvy enough to figure out that they're beat according to the action. They just think, "This is a pretty good hand. I'll call."

I forget what page it is, but in Super System Brunson was discussing playing against this type of a player, and he wrote that he never bluffed, ever, when playing these sorts. You have to show them a hand.