Fish Equity? First time I've played a hand this way.

James282 · #1 12-15-2003, 03:51 AM

I have been playing for a while in a live 10/20 game and I have the displeasure of sitting to the right of a very good player who doesn't like to chop. A little background info:

On my third hand I 3-bet after it was folded to the CO with AJ and beat his AK with a AJ498 board. He wasn't happy, and didn't like my three-bet. A couple of hours later, and I notice him play a hand almost exactly like one posted on here(and one that Sklanksy writes about too). He had A3 and check-called, check-called, bet on an A high board with no realistic draws from the BB. He has also flashed some pretty well-read laydowns and is very proud of being able to lay down a good hand. So here we find ourselves, about an hour after the hand previously described.

I am dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the SB and it is folded to me, I raise. He reraises, here we go. I simply call, because while he doesn't like me, he doesn't like to get his money in preflop with just anything, and is capable of folding to me if he has trash.

Flop comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Fine. He either has overcards or a pocket-pair. From his reaction to the flop I believed he had overcards, and probably better than mine. I check, he bets, I call.

Turn comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check-bet-call

River comes 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, he folds and proudly flashes A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] while rolling his eyes like "you got lucky again, this is frustrating".
Comments?
-James

anatta · #2 12-15-2003, 05:37 AM

He may know some ABC holdem, but if he keeps showing his hands, especially his big folds, he is never going to be really good. Similarly, if he reacts to the flop so that you know he has overcards vs. a big pair, well, as his opponent, you know how nice this is.

I like your move on the river. Most would check-raise on the turn to push him off, but if your read is wrong, he will just call on the turn and you will probably feel compelled to bet the river. Your play risks less. It really only works against players who are very weak post-flop like here. I don't think simply betting the river works online where these SB v BB confrontations are more common since calling one bet headsup with AK on the end is almost automatic for everyone I know.

James282 · #3 12-15-2003, 09:04 AM

Agreed. I call him tough because he was the toughest of the other players at the table and also can be very aggressive when he believes he is ahead...even if it is with a hand like ace high. As to when he misses a flop, it was interesting because I felt like he would give a very slight grimace if it didn't hit him, but only against me! Like he didn't trust me and hated not having something to punish me with. He was a young guy and probably an online player...and we who play predominantly online have trouble eliminating small tells like this. And yeah, his showing his big let downs I think helps him for a tight image, but I think it gives away way too much information as well. Anyway, I knew my hand was good if I made it to the river without any faces. I also knew I could represent a hand like A6 or A8 and I am sure he wouldnt want to pay that off.
-James

eugeneel · #4 12-15-2003, 09:28 AM

checkraising turn works best here I believe as he is less likely to see your play as a bluff if your image is tight.

This is maybe my favorite play in Hold'em but I only get to use it like once per night.

James282 · #5 12-15-2003, 10:01 AM

You are probably right eugene, this was a vary my play sort of play and I was wondering if it is common practice or bad play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] By the way, I dated a girl from Needham, Mass. Pretty small town, and a nice area [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyway, thought that was a random thing to be reminded of! Thanks for the comments.
-James

cero_z · #6 12-15-2003, 01:58 PM

Hi James,
Nice play. I think. Here's why I qualify it: You obviously read him right, and he responded just how you expected him to, and you won. I personally wouldn't try this play, though, because I'd expect that a good player would almost always call me with AK or AQ.
I'd think that it would take the greater force of the C/R -the-turn, bet the river play to get him to make this laydown. Your river bet comes out of nowhere, and as a good player, he should be suspicious and call you down.
But, if your betting pattern was an attempt to mimic HIS value-bet pattern with the A3 hand, you made a great (not good) bluff. In other words, if a player often check-raises as a bluff, he'll be suspicious of that play from others. If he never simply leads out on the river as a bluff, but bets his hands for value in this way, he's more likely to interpret that lead bet from someone else as a value bet, rather than a bluff. If this was your thinking, I think you made a terrific play. Congrats on taking it down in any case.

Al_Capone_Junior · #7 12-15-2003, 02:23 PM

I like the play. When you're heads up and hit something on the river, you can't check it if you're first to act. This guy knows this, to him it looks like the river helped you. Maybe he thought you had T8 or something. Anyway, great play. He shouldn't be showing you all those laydowns tho....

al

Bubmack · #8 12-15-2003, 02:45 PM

A checkraise on the turn? Let's see...On the flop you know you are behind. So if you are planning a checkraise bluff - it is decided after the flop and not on the turn. So you are committing 1 small bet and 2 big bets to win 7 small bets and one big bet. Roughly 9:5. That doesn't seem like enough to me - especially given that the BB will get to see another card on the turn - which could make his hand and could make you dominated. Seems way to risky and if it is +ev - it is only slightly +EV (But I think its -EV in most situations)...you have to know that this player respects the turn check-raise and specifically your check-raises before you could consider this play.

I would have probably mucked it on the flop. But it seems everyone else likes playing the raggidy board here and representing a made hand.

Bubs

Ulysses · #9 12-15-2003, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But, if your betting pattern was an attempt to mimic HIS value-bet pattern with the A3 hand

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I like the play. I've been making a concerted effort to incorporate this into my game lately - the fact that by default many people analyze your moves based on what they would mean if they did the same thing.

CrackerZack · #10 12-15-2003, 03:25 PM

While the practice of this is certainly very good advice and a good plan, if it was his plan here, the execution is pretty bad. The A3o way to play is when you have ace no kicker and think you are up against a lower pair. You don't have enough to raise and would rather he keep betting his lesser hands, but want to make sure the river isn't checked through. On this hand, if he's gonna do it with any of those pairs on board, he better have an A or K kicker and be sure his opponent has AK so he has him reverse dominated.

I personally like the C/R the turn move or the flop, bet the turn. It often folds out overcards.