Ho Hum

[Coilean]

Three guys limp to me on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in a decent 15-30 game, so naturally I raise, and everyone with a hand calls me.

J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The loose passive SB bets (which means a J or better), 3 guys call, I raise, and everyone calls.

7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Everyone checks.

8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Checks to an EP player (who plays loose passive generally, but throws in the occassional move) who bets, only myself and the SB call. Just another day at the office, right?

[elysium]

hi coil
i don't understand the check on the turn. you have more than enough outs and you're a slightly probable leader. you actually have a turn value bet. just terrible coil. you've been around a while coil, so it's really awful. i can't believe it.

start a refresher course in hfap and top. you need to get back to basics. this happens when you don't rehash and restudy from time to time. i am beginning to notice some very bad plays again.

[Coilean]

Hooboy, you're going to LOVE the other hand I posted! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[andyfox]

But he said the flop bettor has a jack or better. Why bet a pair of 8s into a pair of Js or better? He paid for his free card already, no?

[elysium]

hi andy
remember what dan hanson's theory about the semi-bluff raise for the free-card; dan says, and i agree, that there is no such thing as a semi-bluff raise for a free-card from the button because from the button, if your opponent offers you a free-card, you're not going to accept it.

the raise on the flop is, in essence, being made so that you will be checked to on the turn, at which point you bet. the reason for the bet is three-fold; 1)to win the pot right now; 2) to keep from being bluffed on the river; 3) for a free-showdown on the river. oh, there are other reasons too. in this hand andy it's a value bet. they're calling and giving ev positive odds to the draw for the nuts. the bet also conceals the flush a little if it gets there. a K hi will surely call any raise. andy, it goes on and on.

does that mean that there is no such thing as a raise for a free-card. not according to dan. there actually is a raise for a free-card that isn't widely recognized. when you have a straight suited consecutive on the button or a straight consecutive with A hi three of suit, against this identical field, you should raise and accept the free-card. according to dan that is the only free-card play in hold em.

and, by the way, betting on the turn allows you, instead of the field, to bluff on the river if you miss and are without a pair. personally, i'd like to show-down the 8 pair for free, but the bet on the turn may get a J weak kicker to lay it down on the river; highly unlikely though.

the point is the bet on the turn opens the door of opportunity for you, while accepting the free-card opens that door for others.

if the hand is more than 5 handed, a free-card isn't awful, in my opinion, with non-nut draws. but in 4 or under andy, it's hard to imagine a scenario when accepting the free-card is correct.

[skp]

I can almost guarantee you that Dan Hanson would have taken the free card here. The 7 that came on the turn was not exactly a blank on a J86 rainbow (?) flop where 5 guys have shown an interest in the hand. Besides, Coilean strongly suspects that he is trailing the sb who ain't folding a Jack in this bloated pot.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Coilean wrote:[ QUOTE ]
Three guys limp to me on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in a decent 15-30 game, so naturally I raise, and everyone with a hand calls me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why raise? You generally need at least AT suited in this spot OR the cutoff seat with this hand and lineup (in order to buy the button lacking a button action tell) OR fewer opponnets (one weak or no limpers is ideal) OR two additional opponents (to build a big pot for the times you flop a flush draw, trip eights, or top two pair). Most of the time only one blind calls and you end up paying a double bet with a sub par high card strength hand and four opponents. I don't like to put myself in such a spot.


[ QUOTE ]
J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. The loose passive SB bets (which means a J or better), 3 guys call, I raise, and everyone calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps because he is loose PASSIVE you hope he won't reraise and they all give you a free card on the turn (which you should usually take) this is a good raise. Unfortunately, with five callers you can easily hit something (other than a flush draw) and lose to a straight or another backdoor flush on the river. I take one off cheaply here (had the pot been this big BTF which it wouldn't have had I played it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). Another problem is that if you get reraised from a spot that builds a pot you won't know if you are up against a big draw or big hand and this can create a dilemma later.


[ QUOTE ]
7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Everyone checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now it's close between betting and checking and I prefer a bet. If you bet and get three or more calls (indicating you aren't against two pair, a straight, or a set) you are making money on your flush draw in combination with making trips or aces up. If you get fewer calls from better hands you don't lose much given your outs. The additional value of betting is on occasion setting up a river play where you get a better hand to fold (maybe 99) when you don't improve on the river but bet. That is huge.

[ QUOTE ]
8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Checks to an EP player (who plays loose passive generally, but throws in the occassional move) who bets, only myself and the SB call. Just another day at the office, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I like the call luring overcalls by the initial checkers (I count about three). A raise doesn't drive out a better hand and gets only one call from the original raiser when he is worse.

Coilean, if this forum had a "Watch List" I'd put you on it but I'm a bit perplexed by your play here.

Regards,

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

skp,

All this talk of Dan Hanson makes me realize how much I miss his posts. Anyway, I think even a loose passive player might find this board scary enough to fold J small suited or set up a river fold with J9 or JT on river misses. IMO post above I thought is was close between betting and checking but I like the bet because it looks like it has value and makes the river play easier.

Happy Holidays,

Rick

[andyfox]

I raise here on the button every time. I don't see it as "such a spot." I see it as taking control. If I can eliminate one blind and/or get checked to on the flop, great. Now when Coilean raises the flop again, they all check to him on the turn. I see it as a small price to pay for many proabable advantages.

On the flop, you say "I take one off cheaply here," but by raising isn't Coilean taking two off cheaply, or at least increasing his chances of so doing?

On the turn, I agree it's close between betting and checking. If I thought there was an iota of a chance I could win the pot with a bet, I'd bet; but I understand Coilean's check given that he was sure at least one opponent currently had him beat.

And if you're perplexed by this one, read the one where he 3-bet pre-flop with T-8 and raised the river with, ahem, T-8. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Regards,
Andy

[skp]

But what about getting checkraised if you bet. The 7 is a bad card on the turn when the flop is J86 rainbow. This might be a spot where the "check when you have outs, bet when you don't" concept applies.