Who makes this flop call?

Philuva · #1 12-10-2003, 05:59 PM

This is from a $20-$40 online game. I am in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. 5 limpers to the SB. The SB raises. I make it 3 bets from the BB. Everyone calls and the SB caps it. All call. 7 players to the flop for 28 small bets.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. It gets checked to a MP who bets. Another MP raises. CO 3-bets. SB folds.

There are still 2 players to act behind you. Who makes this call?

DaShark · #2 12-10-2003, 06:11 PM

Your over most likely isnt good here so you're drawing to a ten or runner runner spades. I'd say it's fold time.

Ulysses · #3 12-10-2003, 06:55 PM

Well, it seemed like an easy fold on first glance, then I counted the bets and, hmmmmmm, that's close, isn't it?

28+1+2+3 = 34. If nobody caps it, you'll get 12:1 or better. If it's capped, you'll get somewhere between 9:1 and 10:1 (or maybe better if one of the other flop checkers calls).

So, it's close, but you also have plenty of implied odds with this field. Someone could have full house redraws against you if you make your hand on the turn, but you also have backdoor flush possibilities.

Sometimes I call here, sometimes I fold. But what I really would have done is bet this flop.

Gabe · #4 12-10-2003, 08:39 PM

This is about as close as it gets.

As Dirty Harry would say: "You feeling lucky today punk."

Maybe betting out on the flop would have been a good idea. You wouldn't have gotten everyone to fold but it may have kept the betting a little more controlled.

elysium · #5 12-11-2003, 04:36 AM

hi phil
no, you can't call these. you could easily be up against 2 pair and may have to split the pot. your outs are crippled, and if the ace gets there, you don't like it anymore. it's no good for you phil.

brad · #6 12-11-2003, 05:08 AM

with the nut flush runner runner i think u have to stay in there.

but realize that someone has got to have the JT for the open ender, so i dont think u have 4 outs to a gutshot.

on the other hand, i think because of this you can lay down on the turn (if no spade ) pretty easily even if you have long odds.

slavic · #7 12-11-2003, 05:31 AM

I think it's a call but I don't know if I could call it in the heat of the moment. If you just look at the gutshot it's close, the backdoor flush puts it over and I think you A outs are dead because somebody has JT. Depending how this comes down though I'm thinking you are pot stuck on the turn.

This is going to be expensive. If the board pairs on the turn I think I give it up. And if I get to the river and catch anything I think a crying call is in order.

Wow I hate these hands when they don't come home to papa.

Lawrence Ng · #8 12-11-2003, 06:46 AM

Hey there Philuva,

7*4 = 28 small bets before the flop

flop comes 1 spade and you have a nut gutshot straight draw.

I like your check mainly because I'm almost sure that 1 or 2 jacks are already out in other player's hands for their straight draws and thus you are not likely to have 4 outs, but most likely 2 or 3 outs if you are drawing for the straight. And I wouldn't bet an ace to be any good, but if you do hit it on the turn, you may have to call down to the river.

So on the flop it comes back 3 bets to you and by this time there are 30 small bets and it's costing you 3 small bets to call giving you 10 to 1 odds which is very close to hitting a gutshot (11 to 1), but as I mentioned before most likely 1 or 2 jacks are already out in play.

If the turn comes another spade, then it's an easy call to see the river.

If the turn comes a pair I would fold my hand.

If the turn comes a non pair, then you really have to decide whether or not there will be enough implied odds if you do hit your straight on the river.

as mentioned before I really think ace is no good, but with a pot this big you have to call anyways.

Lawrence

Ed Miller · #9 12-11-2003, 08:33 AM

I really don't understand or like the preflop 3-bet. On the flop, I think you probably have to see the turn.

Philuva · #10 12-11-2003, 11:41 AM

The game was actually fairly tight before this hand. I figured with 2 people raising out of the blinds, some of the original limpers might actually fold. I thought that was worth a raise. Plus, I thought my hand to be best over all the limpers. Regardless, it plays well 7 handed even if everyone called.