Really need help/comments on the AKo fold

[jacki]

I need help with this AKo hand.
Did I make the right decision after the flop?
(Don't really have any reads, fairly early in my session.)


Preflop:
I've got A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the BB ($30)
UTG limps
LP ($36) raises to $1 (what do you think about these min. raises? I tend to nearly ignore them)
CO ($25) raises $3
JACKI raises to $6 --let's see if he's really got something.
LP min raiser calls
CO reraises 6 to $9--uhoh, he's really got something
JACKI calls
LP calls
3 to the flop for about $30

FLOP: [ 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
JACKI checks.
LP min raiser bets 0.50
CO raises to $7
I have to fold here right? He's got either AA or KK. I'm dead to AA, and only 3 outs if it's KK. And I shouldn't really consider the backdoor flush, should I?
JACKI folds
LP calls

TURN: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] --- oh, [censored].
LP bets (0.50) -- what a dumbass.
CO raises allin to $9
LP calls.

RIVER: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

CO turns over KhKc to scoop a $57.25 pot

SO, did I make the right fold here? Did I screw up pre-flop. Or did I do OK?
Bonus question: what did LP min raiser idiot have?

[bisonbison]

When someone min-raises at any time, I make a note.
When someone min-bets on a later round, I make a note.

It's usually a sign of weak play. Some people use it preflop with KK or AA to induce a re-raise, but unless you know he's a decent player, it tends to scream "I want to play Limit but I clicked the wrong table." I'm guessing LP had a pair of sixes or JTs.

CO's reraise preflop doesn't have to be AA or KK. If it was one of those, I think a lot of people would really come back over the top of you, reraising to $12 or more. There's a range of pocket pairs he could go to $9 with. Still, when you miss the flop, you did the right thing by discarding. Sure, his bet of 1/4 the pot on the flop is weak weak weak, but I wouldn't chase.

I think CO made a real mistake not driving people out on the flop by pushing in. Then the turn comes with the only card that could beat him and he pushes in. Not a great play.

[SevenStuda]

[jacki]

Thanks for the reply.
Min raiser had 88

OK, so I felt moderately OK folding this. How wrong would it have been to call? or even reraise?

[Zag]

How wrong would it have been to call? or even reraise?

Very wrong. There are two species of min raisers -- the complete idiots you should ignore completely, and the idiots who think they are sucking you in with their strong hands. With either type, the other player, whom you respect, has put in a big raise after. You had already put him on a good hand, and he is just reinforcing it. One of the two has at least KK, if you are really unlucky, you are looking at AA vs KK and you are drawing nearly dead. Dump your AK.

Note that, while AK is only a slight dog to a pair preflop, once the flop has come out and failed to produce the desired A or K, AK is now a big dog to anyone with any pair. Pitch it.

P.S. you didn't ask, but your preflop raise was too small. It should be pot-sized, at least. You raised $3 to make the pot $11. You should have raised to $11 or more. When he then rerereraises you, lay it down preflop if you respect the player at all, because he has the dreaded AA or KK which is AK's bane.

[bisonbison]

Pre-flop, when the action gets to him, there is $4.50 in the pot. If he wants to make a pot sized bet, doesn't that mean he should raise to $9?

I'm not trying to nitpick, I'm trying to make sure I understand what people mean when they say "pot sized bet".

Is there real value in raising it to $11 or more instead of $9?

[tewall]

I agree with all this, and will add one thought. When the action gets back to you ("you" = original poster) pre-flop, you're in a raise/fold situation. AK plays well with all the money in pre-flop (unless it's dominated by AA or KK).

You need to make a decision. Either you're against AA or KK, or you're not. If you decide you're not, go all-in. If you decide you are, fold, as almost no flop will make you very happy. Even if an ace comes, you don't know if you're happy or not.

[Paul2432]

A "pot sized bet" is straight forward. It is simply the amount in the pot. A "pot sized raised" is sometimes confusing. The thing to remember is that the size of the pot includes the amount needed to call before raising.

For example, in the given hand, after the CO raises to $3 and the big blind calls there will be $7.25 in the pot. ($3 from the CO and BB, $1 from LP, and $0.25 from SB). A pot sized raise would then be to $10.25.

Paul

[turnipmonster]

I assume you are talking about the PP $25 NL game. great game. I openraise for $1 with any raising hand I play, including AA, KK, AQs, etc. I think it's a good play, and definitely think it has helped get me action on my good hands, and helped me get away from dominated hands easily. It's probably a good idea to realize that not everyone who is openraising for $1 is clueless [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

If you decide you're not, go all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this strongly. if you can put your opponent on a big pair, say AA-TT, you are either a small favorite or a huge dog if your allin gets called. I could understand this play if you had a very short stack, but you don't.

personally, I am not a big fan of raising big with AK preflop. it is a good hand, but it is still a drawing hand, and one that can be dominated. In addition to that, in these games you can often get players to overplay JJ and QQ on the flop when you do hit. why not call and get it in on the flop when you have a better idea of where you're at?

--turnipmonster