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#1
12-05-2003, 03:40 PM
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Value plays for Ax suited (where x is weak)
This is my first post to this forum, and I'd like to thank you in advance for your comments and thoughts. 2+2 is fantastic and the threads have become daily reading for me over the past couple of weeks.
I've only recently moved up to mid limit games: 10/20 and 20/40, both online and on the felt here in northern CA. My question is, under what conditions are you willing to see the flop with Ax suited? Particularly where x is very weak, say, 6 or lower. At the lower limit games, which tend to be at least a little loose and almost always containing some players that will chase and toss in two bets on almost any two suited cards, this hand tends to pay off when played carefully, over the long haul. Not always of course -- I would not play it 3 bets to go in middle position -- but it seems to show a profit over the long haul as it pays off well against lesser flush draws and the occasional 2 pair (flopping the x card as well as the Ace). In the right situation it seems to have good semi-bluffing power as well. (e.g. having sold a tight image to the table and re-raising or check raising an aggresive Ace bettor after an Ace flops with another face card). Not to ramble, but I guess the bottom line is that I play it pretty often (probably 85% of the time)and am re-evaluating this tendency. Instinct tells me that against better players (and of course this assumes that higher limits = better players, which is certainly not always true) this hand is just not going to pay off enough and will be a long-run loser. This would be a better post with a more specific question about the value of this hand under particular conditions, but let's hear what you think about calling pre-flop with Ax suited where x is too small to be of value as a kicker. (If this post is too general for this forum, please let me know.) Thanks... 2xJ 
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#3
12-05-2003, 04:16 PM
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Re: Value plays for Ax suited (where x is weak)
TwoTimes,
Welcome to the forum. This is a good question even if it goes over some old ground. I disagree with Andy Fox a bit but he does play higher where the hand doesn't play as well. So my thoughts regarding Ax suited apply more for 10/20 to 20/40 in California where the games are often loose aggressive but not super tough. 1) Just about never open limp. You will be facing isolation raises or multiple bets behind all to often. 2) After two limpers you can limp behind but you don't want the aggressive players in there yet to act. If they are behind you fold or wait for three limpers. The hand plays OK in six or seven way pots for two bets but you need to know when to get away from one pair. Don't be afraid to fold after investing one bet if it comes back to you for three bets. 3) Isolate one weak limper with a raise when you have position (cutoff or button). You prefer tight blinds. Note that the Ax suited isn't really much better than Ax offsuit in this spot; however the suitedness provides an apporximately appropriate frequency to your isolation raises (i.e., if you also perform isolation raises with Ax offsuit they will tend to lose their effectiveness over time). 4) Fold against a single tough limper (and there are tough limpers at mid limits). 5) You can limp behind in back after two limpers but raise some of the time if the limpers are very readable and weak. 6) In back you can raise a large field but calling is the standard play. Lean towards raising in the cutoff to buy the button. Don't overplay your hand post flop on your misses. 7) You can play for two bets in back but you need just about the whole field in. If you fold you don't lose much. Regards, Rick
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#5
12-05-2003, 07:07 PM
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Re: Value plays for Ax suited (where x is weak)
great reply -- thanks for the thorough consideration
sounds like someone has an anacronym for this kind of play: http://casinogambling.about.com/libr.../aa102802a.htm
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