Hellmuth Vs. Ciaffone. Who is right?

[iceflame]

Just got through reading "Play Poker like the Pros " by Phil. In his section on LHE ring games 'intermediate stratefy' he writes that if you have a 5-5 and it's two or three bet in front of you,just 'fold and live to fight another day'--which is the conventional wisdom.

However he continues "Still if nearly every hand is being three bet then by all means call the three bets! In these crazy games --which I love to play in--sets will win huge pots."

I don't get it.

Referring to Ciaffone's book, chapter on 'Beating a Loose Game' he writes that there are two general types "A" and 'B"
"A'" being passive with few pots raised where you can get in cheaply with a low pair. 'B' being aggressive.

"Naturally most players have the good sense NOT to cold call in rased and reraised pots."

Ciaffone gives the example of 6-6 which will seldom win uimproved in multiraised pots. He goes on to add that "I'd like to see the flop on pocket sixes but cannot afford to pay through the nose to do it. The long term odds say I need to win about half a dozen bets IN AN UNRAISED POT to break even. But if the pot is raised t costs more just to break even for the times I miss the flop or get a set cracked, and if I had to call a raise cold, I have a clear fold. If most of the pots are being raised and re raised , it is foolish to tell yourself, 'Maybe I can sneak in for a single bet'.

What am I missing here? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[James282]

You might be missing that Ciaffone is right and Hellmuth is wrong. Getting into it with 55 for three bets preflop is an insanely fast way to the poorhouse.
-James

[Nottom]

If the lagtastic game in question involves capping on the big money streets post-flop then I think small pairs are profitable. If the play gets more reasonable post-flop and you can't count on getting payed of in a rediculous fashion if you hit, then folding is best.

I tend to think most games fall closer to the second category.

[Saborion]

[ QUOTE ]
You might be missing that Ciaffone is right and Hellmuth is wrong. Getting into it with 55 for three bets preflop is an insanely fast way to the poorhouse.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]
Well that`s not entierly true now is it? It all depends on the post-flop action. If there`s aggressivness post-flop, then those sets can be more profitable than they are in normal games. As long as you can handle the swings, those games can be really profitable.

[Duke]

It really depends on the game. Limit, opponents, everything.

~D

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Ice:

They're both wrong.

Much of Hellmuth advice on limit hold 'em, in my opinion, is just bizarre.

As for Ciaffone, what he is saying is better, but there are many situations where it is right to call for two bets with a pair of deuces. If you're getting multiway action and can anticipate action after the flop if you do make a set, and that will almost always be the case, you should play.

A rough rule of thumb is if you are getting or can anticipate 5-to-1 before the flop then go ahead and play. Furthermore, against players who you are sure will give plenty of action on the flop and beyond, you don't need immediate odds this good.

For example, I called for two more bets earlier this evening from the big blind, for a total of three bets, against three players. Notice that I was getting 10-to-2, which is the same as 5-to-1, before the flop. 3 bets form each of them plus my original blind bet.

best wishes,
mason

[trillig]

Here is an idea for you:

Fold all your low pairs and continue to watch play, count the # of times you would have won assuming there is a showdown and the # of times you lost.

As a bonus since you are out of the hand you get extra time to focus heavily on your opponents and this is worth some $.

-t

[brad]

theres been a lot of posts in the form , im on button with small pair, a raiser and a couple cold callers, what should i do?

almost everyone agrees that raising is putting too much money in (obviuosly cant get it heads up, cause its already multiway), but that your hand is too good to fold it (against typical opponents, or assuming you are in a decent game, as evidenced from all that cold calling [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). which leaaves calling.

[gojacketz]

Three bets before the flop with 5-5? No way you will ever get the correct odds unless you are playing some of the low limit games in California. Three bets with 8 players taking the flop were commonplace when I was there in May. Amazing to see 8 players check the flop with 24 small bets in the pot. I think I was the only player that ever folded before the flop.

If pots are raised and reraised, but there are five or six players still seeing flops, small pairs can be very profitable. I love games like this, though the fluctuations are so big, you need a good bit of bankroll to be safe...

Gojacketz

[SoBeDude]

If the lagtastic game in question ...

I have never heard of the word 'lagtastic', nor is it in the dictionary.

I assume its a typo, but I can't figure out what word you're trying to put in there.

Can ya help a guy out?

-Scott