Would anyone raise this river?

[chesspain]

Party .5/1 game...average table...opponent in question is fairly new to the table


I'm on the button and dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Folded to MP and LMP who both call, LP folds, CO poster checks, I raise, folded to BB who calls, all limpers call


2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked around to me and I bet, MP, LMP, and CO all call, BB folds...


[2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked around to me and I bet, folded to LMP who checkraises, folded back to me and I call


[2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

LMP bets, and thinking that she may well have raised me with two pair, I reraise with my higher two pair...she three-bets me, and I call...

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She showed T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the boat

[rkiray]

Check raises on the turn often mean a set. No way I raise the river. Lately I have often been folding on the turn unless the raiser is either very aggressive or tricky or known to check raise turn with big draws (I think this play is more common at higher limits, so I'd be inclined to fold your hand).

[3 Bet]

When LMP checked raised you the first thing I thought was Pocket Tens. I would have called at the river.

[chesspain]

I should probably be following your advice more often. Already today, my three premium pocket pairs all ran into checkraises on the turn, with no overcards on the board. I checkcalled down, and lost all three hands.

However, aren't you afraid that if you always lay down a good hand to a turn raise that others will begin taking shots at you. Even at LL tables, some of the other players do have a clue.

[Gomez22]

I honestly think the only players that have a clue are the good players and you should be cautious of them (in a sense) already. Until you get to higher levels, I would think that check-raises on the turn mean exactly what they scream...... "I have a set/nut flush/nut straight/etc".

Of course this is just my opinion, and I sometimes have to take off my shoes to count pot-odds, so take that as you will.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[chesspain]

So no one thinks that LL players ever raise the turn with two-pair?

In the hand in question, I thought it was much more likely that my opponent had JT than TT, especially since checkcalling down a PF raiser with an underpair to the board seemed like really poor play. While I know that many LL players play poorly, I'ld hate to get into the habit of lazily avoiding any handreading at all, even at LL tables.

[Dov]

Most of LL players I have run into on Party will wait for the river to raise with 2 pair. They just keep getting drawn out on by straights, flushes, sets, and boats - and they don't realize that it's their own fault.

It is very hard to read the hands of most low limit players. (at least for me) This is b/c most of their play isn't logical, it's intuitive. They act on what they 'feel' is going to happen. That doesn't mean that no LL player can be read, only that you have to work harder to uncover their current thinking. Some of the LL players are good enough to be able to consistently read them, but they are usually on their way up to the next limit soon. (I think)

One method I try to use to determine the 'readability' of another player is whether or not they are trying to read me. I play these LL games in a very tight and straightforward fashion. When I raise preflop, I am holding a big PP or AK, AQ, or AJs. If they notice this and fold when an A or K flops, then I start paying more attention to their play. (try to read their hands) Otherwise, I am basically playing a 'fit or fold' strategy.

It is working much better since I tightened up my PF play.

This is just my opinion, but I hope it helps you somehow.

[bunky9590]

The chippie would have gotten my extra two bets as well. Don't beat yourself up about it. I would have put her on JT.

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
Until you get to higher levels, I would think that check-raises on the turn mean exactly what they scream...... "I have a set/nut flush/nut straight/etc".

[/ QUOTE ]

I had etc in there because I didn't want to list any other hands they would raise with, I thought everyone would get the gist of it.