89s in the BB

Saborion · #1 11-24-2003, 06:04 PM

1/2. Loose passive. 9-handed.

I`m dealt 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the BB.
EP1 limp, EP2 limp, EP3 limp, MP1 limp, MP2 limp, SB complete, I check.
7 to the flop.

[T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] 3.5 BB.
EP1 bet, EP2 call, EP3 call, MP2 call, I call.
5 to the turn.

T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] 6 BB.
EP1 bet, EP2 call, EP3 call, MP2 raise, I fold and the rest call.
4 to the river.

6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] 13.5 BB.
Checked to MP2 that bet, EP1 call, EP2 call.

It would`ve cost me 4$ on the turn, and it was 21.5$ in the pot. So I had enough for the flushdraw. But, my flush draw were 9 high, and it was possible that someone already had filled up. Not to mention that I could`ve been raised by EP1 as well. Was my turn fold a bad fold?

MP2 turned over KK for the turned boat.

eh923 · #2 11-24-2003, 06:22 PM

Ignoring the results, I think this was a horrible fold. I say that because:
- Your read about this being a loose-passive table seems right on.
- The pre-flop action does not indicate a large pocket pair such as KK or TT. To be afraid that there was such as hand would be paranoia. Of course, 55 would be very reasonable from this crew.
- As you said, you had the proper odds to cold-call the turn. However, you didn't factor in the likelihood that the other 3 people would call the raise. A call was more than worth the risk of a turned boat.

Results show that you were right this time, but do you really feel that given the same situation, you would repeatedly make the same decision? It sounds like a negative proposition to me.

eh923

Saborion · #3 11-24-2003, 06:44 PM

4 other people in the pot. Someone else might draw to a better flush. Someone might have a boat already. Someone might get a boat while I get the flush. I knew there were people behind me that with 99 % certainty would call that raise, giving me better pot odds. But I have to hit a heart to get my flush, and even if I do, I might lose. Is this really such an obvious call?

rkiray · #4 11-24-2003, 06:51 PM

I normally don't start worrying about big flush draws or full houses until I see more action than this. MP2 played horribily. Especially not Raising pf. Many times I would check raise the flop with a hand like yours, but that's a better play with a aggresive table. With a table this passive I think you should have bet the flop.

lil' · #5 11-24-2003, 06:53 PM

I would put the turn raiser on a ten and call.

Saborion · #6 11-24-2003, 06:58 PM

I did put the turn raiser on a T.

So even though it`s only 9 high you`d call this down?
9 high being the reason I didn`t bet/check-raise the flop. Also wrong?

eh923 · #7 11-24-2003, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4 other people in the pot. Someone else might draw to a better flush. Someone might have a boat already. Someone might get a boat while I get the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's all true. But playing that way is just plain chicken. You won't always have the luxury of a cinch hand, but since the reward is worth the risk, go for it! Also, did you really see enough action to warrant a fold?

[ QUOTE ]
But I have to hit a heart to get my flush, and even if I do, I might lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you miss the flush, you won't have to call a river bet. What matters is that on the turn, the odds deserved a call...and more specifically a crying call if you might not have the best hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really such an obvious call?

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't fathom saying "no" to this. Perhaps if it was capped by the time it got to you, but not for 2 bets with 3 limpers just itching to call.

eh923

Aces McGee · #8 11-24-2003, 07:05 PM

Hi Saborion

With only three flush cards on any board, the odds of a higher flush draw being out there aren't good. Any time you lose a flush to a higher flush in that situation (where you are using three board cards and both hole cards), ask yourself why you didn't lose more money, because you probably should have.

Also, why are you worried about a higher flush on the turn, but not the flop?

As for the boat possibility, sure, it's out there, but as other posters said, the preflop action didn't lend itself to KK or TT, and the flop action didn't scream top two pair, either. No reason to fear the boat yet.

Bad fold.

McGee

eh923 · #9 11-24-2003, 07:10 PM

I'd have a tough time throwing away any "3-on-the-board" flush. It's just so rare to lose to a higher flush in that case (of course, 4 on the board is a different story). The board would have to be scary (such as being paired twice or AAKxx), or the action really heavy before dropping a made flush.

chesspain · #10 11-24-2003, 07:49 PM

Saborian,

I'll go against the grain (ouch [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) and say that your fold wasn't so bad. Although I might well have called the turn bet, I like your thinking, assuming you actually went through the analysis at the time.

Indeed, you are correct that you need to be concerned about a boat. Curiously, I don't think that hands like TT or KT are unfathamable, especially given the early limping. In addition, while it is unlikely that someone has a higher flush draw, all that limping would make me a little nervous. Moreover, given that hero had no way to know whether the turn might be raised after him, I don't believe it's unreasonable to want better than 5:1 immediate odds when calling this bet.