AA: checking behind on the flop

[Guy McSucker]

Okay let's see what you all make of this one.

Losing a few $$$ at the Stars 50c-$1 NLHE game, I pick up AA UTG+1 with $58 in my stack.

There's a late position blind in the pot. UTG calls, I make it $5, folded round, UTG calls. $13 or so in the pot after rake.

Flop is that most drawless of boards: K-8-3 rainbow.

If I'm still ahead, he is either drawing to a backdoor something or has at most 5 outs.

Here is my read on this player. He is either a genius or a lucky moron. He has been making some outlandish river calls (e.g. $35 all-in from a preflop raiser who bet the AK7 flop, 9 on turn, 3 on river. Our hero had A6 and won the pot...) and some bizarre folds (e.g. board 56789, he folded for $1 in a $30 pot. Bettor showed JT, so it was a good fold, but how he managed it is beyond me.) In all cases he has turned out to be right. This is either the work of a genius, a madman, or both. He has my stack covered.

Anyway, he checks. I decided that since I am either way behind or way ahead, I'd check to try to get some action out of him in the former case.

What do you all think of this?

I checked very quickly in fact. Turn is a two, putting a two-flush out there. He bet $15, a small overbet. I raised all-in rather less quickly.

Comments on this move? Would you just call? I didn't like the possibility of a backdoor flush here, but perhaps that's playing scared.

All comments appreciated, unless Acesover8s is going to point me to some more self-help groups.

Guy.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

I think your check on the flop is a very good play. Your turn raise is a good play if you expect him to call with any one-pair hand, AND you think he will give up bluffing if you just call.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[crockpot]

i like this play a lot, and if i thought about it ahead of time, it's probably exactly how i would play it.

i see very little chance of him continuing to bluff after you call $15, unless he's a maniac, so all-in now is better than giving him a free draw to his 5 outs and hoping he keeps coming at you.

[Guy McSucker]

My all-in raise was called, the river was an apparent blank, and my opponent showed K-6 which thankfully was only one pair.

It definitely worked out for me this time: by checking the flop I managed to convince him to put $50 or so into a $13 pot with only five outs, which is great.

I still don't know if he would have bet the river had I called the turn, or called me if I bet flop and turn, of course.

Guy.

[1800GAMBLER]

If he hit the flop i think you are getting the majorities of players stacks in here playing it normally. Calling preflop, hitting the flop they want and then folding is pretty irregular.

It has the advantages of it may get a little more action from the K pair.

But then we have these cases:

He missed the flop and catches his pair, 6 outs.
He hit the flop and catches 2 pair, 5 outs.

A lot more money will be going in on the later case.

You have the advantage you may inspire him to bluff the turn too.

Him being ahead and you checking the flop doesn't really have any advantages, you are making this play so you can get your whole stack in there.

I'm getting deja vu were we had this arguement and i was supporting checking and you were supporting betting a long time ago. That one was with me having a set but there being a flush draw on the board, that got pretty detailed.

[Guy McSucker]

I'm getting deja vu were we had this arguement and i was supporting checking and you were supporting betting a long time ago. That one was with me having a set but there being a flush draw on the board

Heh.

I think if there were two to a flush on the board, or a more threatening board like KJx, I would bet my aces. Even if he doesn't have the flush draw, I don't want to get outplayed when the third card of a suit comes in. Plus, there's a slight possibility of getting more action, either because he has the draw or he has something marginal but hopes I am betting the draw.

What do others think of checking behind with two to a flush on the flop? Or a flop of KJ7 rainbow?

Guy.

P.S. I am pretty sure that thread wasn't us. It was someone called JayP and someone called Guy McCusker. I have never met either of these people.

[1800GAMBLER]

Heads up with 2 flush on there it wouldn't be much of a problem and you are more likely to induce a bluff then too.

KJx seems like it has more benfits as he may bet the turn with the pair Js as he would just fold them on the flop.

Although there aren't many problems with checking behind with your aces heads up, i think it's better just to bet.

I think the play is very opponent dependant.

I'd check with an aggressive-bluffer and never check with a loose player.

[Zag]

Since I would often bet when I missed the flop, I would bet out here, too. (I am considering AA as having "hit" this flop.) In other words, if the flop were Q72 rainbow and I had raised preflop with AK and only been called ahead of me, I would bet out most of the time.

In this case, I suspect that he would have called you down with his top pair-no kicker whether you bet the flop or not. From the A5 hand, I like your "lucky moron" read of this player.