Shorthanded PLO

[tewall]

What hands are worth betting on the flop 3 handed? Raising? Same for the turn.

Thank you.

[Graham]

Bit of a vague question there, tewall, but I'd love to see some responses to a thread on short-handed PLO. That's a part of my game that's definitely weak. Esp if it came from some folks like Ray and fossilman, who no doubt have some experience in more rarified PLO atmospheres.

I don't really feel like going into a short-handed game myself right now, just to get some hands to post, however... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

As a first thought I guess you'd have to put prime importance on getting a handle on how your opps play the weaker/middling type hands on teh flop, eg how much they're willing to call with or splash around with 2 pair or open enders....yes, yes...now I'm being vague...I know.

G

[tewall]

The general question is what's a good hand? In a full ring, you want nut hands, or draws to such, but short-handed you can't play that way, obviously. So where do you draw the line? Obviously this would depend on the opponents style of play, and blind size, etc., for which I intentionally left the question vague, as any answers would be appreciated, with details filled in as desired.

[tewall]

I'll try providing more info, and see if I get a response.

Say the blinds are $3/$6 and average stack size is $500. Opponents are a bit call station ish.

Same question with $5/$10 blinds and $10/$20 blinds, which to repeat for convenience is, what hands to you bet on the flop, and what hands do you raise? I'm thinking primarily in terms of for value.

[Zeno]

At 3-handed, any large pocket pair - Jacks or better, even with bad side cards is a raising hand, at any blind structure. There, that's a start. Let's see if anyone else will chime in and agree with me or disagree. At least something might get going.

-Zeno

[tewall]

Thanks Zeno.

My thinking is that Jacks or better would be a betting hand, not a raising hand. But I asked the question because I'm really up in the air about this (i.e., I don't know what I'm doing). I appreciate any info.

[Acesover8s]

[ QUOTE ]
At 3-handed, any large pocket pair - Jacks or better, even with bad side cards is a raising hand, at any blind structure. There, that's a start. Let's see if anyone else will chime in and agree with me or disagree. At least something might get going.


[/ QUOTE ]

While I think you're right here, I would raise with every hand I'm going to play 3 to 5 handed.

I think the key to PLO is playing your opponents (as long as we're not talking about loose online only bet the nuts games).

In short handed PLO, on the flop I bet any decent draw (nut flush draw or openender with a pair), top two from early position, etc. On the button I would bet one pair if I thought there was a decent chance my opponents would give up. Which is why I think its important to raise preflop in this game. If you can isolate against 1 or 2 opponents and then pick up the pot when they don't hit you're going to be a long way ahead. Best yet, when you do hit a strong hand and they hit a lesser one you're in for a lot of action.

As far as turn and river play , you need to watch who is a bluffer, who is a strong reader (and who THINKS they are a strong reader). You have to be prepared to fold your Q-high flush against some players and bet it into others. Keep an idea of how others view you. Don't always slow down on the turn just because they called you on the flop.

Someone mentioned it in another thread, but I'll bring it up here too. If this is a live game, I always straddle 3-handed, and usually 4-handed as well.

[tewall]

"Best yet, when you do hit a strong hand and they hit a lesser one you're in for a lot of action."

Thanks for the input. A couple of thoughts. First of all, I think the above sentence is key. I want them to be chasing me with worse hands, because that's where I think the edge is. But I don't know what's a good enough hand to be betting for value, hence my original question.

"As far as turn and river play , you need to watch who is a bluffer, who is a strong reader (and who THINKS they are a strong reader). You have to be prepared to fold your Q-high flush against some players and bet it into others. Keep an idea of how others view you. Don't always slow down on the turn just because they called you on the flop."

I can't see folding a Queen high flush 3 handed, unless the guy you're playing against is terrible. If he's decent at all, I think you have to pay him off. Flush against flush 3 handed isn't likely enough to happen to throw away your hand, and a Jack high flush would certainly be a raising hand 3 handed, so throwing away a Queen high flush could easily be throwing away the best hand.

[Graham]

In short handed PLO, on the flop I bet any decent draw (nut flush draw or openender with a pair), top two from early position, etc. On the button I would bet one pair if I thought there was a decent chance my opponents would give up. Which is why I think its important to raise preflop in this game. If you can isolate against 1 or 2 opponents and then pick up the pot when they don't hit you're going to be a long way ahead. Best yet, when you do hit a strong hand and they hit a lesser one you're in for a lot of action.


I was about to post what I'd bet on the flop, and see what I got back, but it's not too far off this strategy of Aces, except a tad looser. Say 3/4 handed and in MP/LP, I will in addition often bet a bare open-ender or just top pair if checked to - or even middle pair with a couple of overcards, if I thought my opps might fold enough. At least there's something to fall back on if you're called. If raised, then that's you telt. Getting called behind can be problematic, since you might have the pot taken from you on the turn if you fail to bet again, while you may be hit with a delay raise if you do. Depends on your opponent's trickiness there.

Good point about frequent raising and picking up the missed flops.

I think I probably have the most trouble when my opp(s) begin to get tricky and readily play back on the flop with their own mediocre hands. Then I find I'm giving up the initiative (and some pots) to them.

G

[tewall]

My question has to do with value betting. Assume you're not going to get enough pots by them folding, but you're winning by them chasing. What's a good enough hand to make them chase?