NL holdem - Is this a bet? - You Make the Call

[Rick Nebiolo]

The game is a small buy in no limit holdem game where many of the players normally play limit.

Player A is first to act on the river and grabs his only stack of about 25 chips and quickly pushes them straight out in front of him as far as his arm will go. He holds onto his chips. Player B immediately pushes in an even bigger stack to call. Player A now pulls back his chips and says "I didn't release my chips so I'm not betting".

The floor is called. What is the proper decision? In making your decision, cite which rule and rulebook you are using (e.g., the Ciaffone or Caro/Cooke online rule books, your local casino/card barn rule book, etc.) or just state that your decision is based on what makes sense, what your experience tells you is right, or what seems fair.

Just curious....

~ Rick

[Guy McSucker]

In some UK cardrooms there is a "betting line". Once you move chips forward over the line, you have bet those chips.

In our local cardroom, there is no line on the tables, but the same principle is applied, and an imaginary line is, errr, imagined, around the point where people have their cards. If you move chips forward past where your cards are, you have bet those chips.

So if we apply these rules, that's a bet. Unless he has really short arms.

Guy.

[nicky g]

I think it's an obvious bet, though the dealer should have intervened to tell him to let go of his chips.

Guy, has your screen name always been GuyMcSucker? I could have sworn it used to be Guy McCusker, but I misread things a lot. Have you changed it, or am I imagining things as usual?

[drudman]

Foxwoods has a line, and in any B&M that's a bet baby as far as I'm concerned. In my home game however it's like chess... no move is for real until your hand is off the chips, or you say "bet".

[Zag]

That is cheap angle shooting and the bet would count in any casino in the country.

In a home game, however, you have to make accomodations. If I really believed that the person was thinking and not angle shooting, I would push to let him take his bet back -- especially if he was generally a big donator to the game. We don't want to chase him off, now, do we?

Probably the compromise I would end up with is that the rules say (sound good and confidant, just like back in the days when I was a professional umpire) that he should forfeit all the chips, but, since this is a friendly game, we will allow him to pull back half of them. This is obviously not a "correct" ruling by any standard (she's a little bit pregnant), but will probably mollify people enough that we can get back to playing.

[Guy McSucker]

Hi Nicky,

Guy, has your screen name always been GuyMcSucker? I could have sworn it used to be Guy McCusker, but I misread things a lot.

No misreading here. You're right. I changed it for comedy value. Not very funny I know.

Guy.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

If I read your post correctly, after moving the stack forward, he held onto it for some noticeable period of time, at which point the other guy called.

If that's what happened, I rule it a bet. If the guy complains, I tell him either it was a bet, or he was shooting an angle. I then inform him that in my room we don't allow angle shooting, and if that's what he was doing, would he please be so kind as to leave?

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[tewall]

It's pretty funny, given your real name.

[Mike Gallo]

Rick,

At my casino they would consider it a bet. He crossed the "line".

[Rick Nebiolo]

Everybody,

Thanks for the replies so far.

Consider this: For no limit the Los Angeles Rules AS PRINTED are very close to the Bob Ciaffone online rules (Bob worked on the common rulebook in 1997). Here is a link to Bob's Rules:

http://www.diamondcs.net/~thecoach/RobsPkrRules3.htm

Two more questions:

1) Assuming these rules are in force, do you stick by your answers so far?

2) With so many newcomers playing small buy in no limit, do you see a problem with these rules?

More later tonight....

~ Rick