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#1
10-13-2003, 04:48 PM
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All-In Hands are Killing Me!
I get killed every time I get into a big confrontation. It is getting very frustrating.
Did I play this one wrong? 1/2 pokerstars first hand and I post in the cutoff. I get dealt: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 limpers to BB who raises $2 Everyone calls Flop comes: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Checked around to me and I bet $25 BB (who raised preflop) raise to $50 At this point he has $50 left and I have him coverd. I called. Should I have folded or raised all-in? I can't put him on AAA (given his preflop and flop action) here and a set of Js or 4s seems unlikely given I have a J and a 4. I am guessing he has A,K or A,Q with maybe a flush draw. Turn is a blank. He bets $25 and I set him all in. He had AAA and kills me. 
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#2
10-13-2003, 06:30 PM
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Re: All-In Hands are Killing Me!
[ QUOTE ]
I get killed every time I get into a big confrontation. It is getting very frustrating. Did I play this one wrong? [/ QUOTE ] Yes you did. [ QUOTE ] 1/2 pokerstars first hand and I post in the cutoff. I get dealt: J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 limpers to BB who raises $2 Everyone calls [/ QUOTE ] First of all, what on earth are you doing calling this bet, or any bet preflop with J4, suited or otherwise? [ QUOTE ] Flop comes: J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Checked around to me and I bet $25 BB (who raised preflop) raise to $50 At this point he has $50 left and I have him coverd. I called. Should I have folded or raised all-in? [/ QUOTE ] You definitely have to either fold or go all-in here. I guess if I had accidentally called preflop with that hand and was looking at this flop, I would probably go all in, but it would be wicked hard for me to do so given that it's very possible that he has me dominated. [ QUOTE ] I can't put him on AAA (given his preflop and flop action) here and a set of Js or 4s seems unlikely given I have a J and a 4. I am guessing he has A,K or A,Q with maybe a flush draw. [/ QUOTE ] Wow, I think it would seem wicked possible that he is holding AA. He raised preflop, not as much as he should have, but with that kind of flop raise... what could he really have? I seriously doubt spades unless he is a super clown. That leaves... AA AK AQ AJ JJ 44. You are dominated by all but two of those hands. [ QUOTE ] Turn is a blank. He bets $25 and I set him all in. He had AAA and kills me. [/ QUOTE ] All I'm saying is that the way he bets on the turn (AFTER your flop raise!) is a dead giveaway. He sees a blank (i.e. no flush card) and bets big again. Don't call preflop raises with J4.
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#4
10-13-2003, 08:39 PM
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Re: All-In Hands are Killing Me!
'Yes you did.'
No you didn't. 'First of all, what on earth are you doing calling this bet, or any bet preflop with J4, suited or otherwise?' The odds are there. 'You definitely have to either fold or go all-in here' That's debtable. You give him a chance you fold AK AQ with that logic. (it's debtable only because someone will argue the flush draw). ' AA AK AQ AJ JJ 44. You are dominated by all but two of those hands.' 'All but two' eh? Check the combinations on those. You also should look at this in a less black and white way, he could be dominated by an AKs or AQs too. I think anyone who doesn't lose the max. here is overcrediting the people in their game.
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#5
10-13-2003, 11:44 PM
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Re: All-In Hands are Killing Me!
given the implied odds pre-flop another 2 w/ j4s is not bad. he is making a huge mistake letting that many people see the flop w AA, if he doesn't hit a set he is in trouble. his check raise could be AK or other A w/ flush draw, since your late bet could mean many things. I do think the flop is the time to go all in, b/c if you assume u have the best hand and he has Ax flush draw there are many things that can beat you, unless u hit a j or a 4 any other card will just make things more uncertain plus he is more likley to call here w/ a draw than later which should increase the ev of the bet, for whatever my opinion is worth.
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#6
10-13-2003, 11:53 PM
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Re: All-In Hands are Killing Me!
Wow, I can't justify making that call preflop, no matter what you guys say. Trying to take a shot at flopping what? A two pair that is unlikely to be top two? Flop a flush? Flop a flush draw to the fourth nut flush potentially? Of course implied odds are always there in NL, esp. in looser games. But where is the cutoff? Do you call a raise with Txs? 9xs? Where does it stop? I'm just saying, playing hands like this where "implied odds are there" may be a concept that is overused, esp. in this type of case.
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#8
10-14-2003, 07:19 AM
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Re: All-In Hands are Killing Me!
> I can't put him on AAA (given his preflop and flop action)
. Quite the contrary. Minimum raises are often a sign of a huge hand as they only make sense if the raiser wants a call instead of taking it down right now. The fact that he min-raised for 1/2 his stack on the flop clearly indicates that he has a hand that he wants to double up on. . That doesn't mean that you can automatically put him on AA, but you know that your bottom twopair is in trouble after getting reraised on an ace-high flop. The minimum hand I'd put him on here is top pair with a flush draw which already is an (albait slight) favorite over J4. Other possibilities include AJ, probably with the Ad as this reduces his risk of facing a flush-draw, or a set. . That being said, I don't think that you can get away from the hand with 1/4 of your stack already in unless you know the player very well. It dosn't matter much if you call with the intention to move in on turn, or move in now, as both of you are pot committed, anyway.
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#9
10-14-2003, 09:34 AM
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Re: All-In Hands are Killing Me!
AA was certainly a possibility. However, here is why I can't put him on it enough to get away from my hand:
1: after 5 limpers, he only raises it $2 meaning everyone is going to call. You normally dont want to let that many people draw cheaply at your AA, especially when you are out of position. 2: He checked the flop with 2 suit on the board and 5 other players, thus potentially giving flush draws a free shot. with 2 As in his hand it is less likely someone will bet 3: He could have been putting me on a steal, a flush draw, or an A, and thus willing to go to battle with me with a hand like A,K 4: He would possibily play a hand like A,X with a flush draw the same way. This thinking could be wrong, but the reason I called the flop and then went all-in on the turn was because of his flush potential. If the 3 flush had come on the turn and he led at me I would have mucked.
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#10
10-14-2003, 09:58 AM
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Re: All-In Hands are Killing Me!
playing hands like this where "implied odds are there" may be a concept that is overused
It's not a matter of implied odds here, it's a pure pot odds decision. But where is the cutoff? The cutoff is one off the button, coined by Bob Ciaffione I think - the idea is you can "cut off" the button by raising, making him fold and you effectively have the button in the hand from there on. (Actually are you asking this or is this just a slight ambiguity in your post? Sorry if it is.) Personally I would make the preflop call all the time, but fold to the min flop raise some of the time. First hand in it's really hard to say but I could see myself getting attached to bottom two there without a player dependant read. And that's with Txs and 9xs as well, because here I have position. Would anyone agree that there's a mistake in posting to play before the big blind arrives? It's obviously where this problem really came from. Utah, you say you were forced to post but you should never feel that really. Jon
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