Debtable one..

[1800GAMBLER]

$200 buy in, 1/2 all stacks the same. 6 handed.

UTG folds, next does, i open call with 98s, loose player calls in, loose SB calls in, average tightness average aggression (BB) makes it $10.

I call, as do both others.

Flop:

4 8 2r

BB bets $12, i call, rest fold.

Turn:

6o

BB bets $20, i call.

River:

3

He checks, i check.

Comments? [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[kelvin474]

If he's anything like a lot of the 1-2 players I face, he has two big cards and couldn't bring himself to fire at the river unimproved...

[Guy McSucker]

He's either pushing two big cards or has an overpair and bet small to keep you in, then lost his nerve on the river.

I don't like the preflop play at all. When you open-call you have no real idea if you can get paid off if you hit your speculative hand and you are out of position with what will most likely be a draw; and when you call the raise you must know you're behind and likely to face resistance, and you're going to be caught between the bettor and the rest of the field for the remainder of the hand.

Can't see anything wrong with the rest since BB didn't make a proper bet at any stage. Really you're just checking it down, more or less. Could it have been worth a big bet on the river? Or would you just prefer to see his cards?

Guy.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like the preflop play at all. When you open-call you have no real idea if you can get paid off if you hit your speculative hand and you are out of position with what will most likely be a draw; and when you call the raise you must know you're behind and likely to face resistance, and you're going to be caught between the bettor and the rest of the field for the remainder of the hand.




[/ QUOTE ]

That's one thing i didn't consider at all. Thanks.

I knew they were coming preflop, should have considered after that.

This is usually a straight forward muck but i started thinking why it is a straight forward muck. My reason was the preflop raise damages my implied odds. Then i realised that was wrong. Since after the preflop raise the pot gets bigger so the bet size also increases on the flop, so the implied odds are the same.

Now i've actually thought about it again it's a dumb move. Since if he's capable of pot betting on the flop i have to fold after his preflop raise i have to fold.

[ QUOTE ]


Can't see anything wrong with the rest since BB didn't make a proper bet at any stage. Really you're just checking it down, more or less. Could it have been worth a big bet on the river? Or would you just prefer to see his cards?

Guy.



[/ QUOTE ]

It was pretty easy to tell he has AK AQ at the end which i figured just weren't calling. Meanwhile i could put a long shot on him having 99 TT and got soft which would of course call.

[nicky g]

"My reason was the preflop raise damages my implied odds. Then i realised that was wrong. Since after the preflop raise the pot gets bigger so the bet size also increases on the flop, so the implied odds are the same."

Not really. Before you had the chance of winning up to $200 for a $2 investment (assuming you're the only two players). After calling the raise you have the chance of winning around 190, having made a $10 investment. Your impled odds have gone down a lot.
If the stacks were unlimited, then you could argue that your implied odds hadn't changed.

[Ignatius]

The original preflop call is a bit on the loose side and only justifyable is raised pots are rare. Suited connectors simply don't play well from early position. After the BB made it $10, calling for 5% of your stack is borderline, but still OK as now you have position on the raiser.
.
After the flop, you played the hand too passive. His weak 1/4 pot bet probably means overcards (most likely AK). Raise (say, to $40) to protect your toppair and try to get it heads up. If he comes over the top, you can safley put him on an overpair and muck, otherwise keep up the presure if the turn comes low.

[1800GAMBLER]

All the stacks rarely go in.

[1800GAMBLER]

'After the flop, you played the hand too passive. His weak 1/4 pot bet probably means overcards (most likely AK). Raise (say, to $40) to protect your toppair and try to get it heads up. If he comes over the top, you can safley put him on an overpair and muck, otherwise keep up the presure if the turn comes low.'

That is the one reply i knew i'd disagree with. If he has over cards he has just made a -EV if i come over the top on that board he's probably done with his hand. Meanwhile if i call he should fire out another bluff.

Raising does have the advantage of the information but it's 2:1 he has overcards compared to overpair. Hence just from that if the pot was zero the call would be fine.

[nicky g]

In a 100x BB game? I find that surprising (it only takes a couple of pot-sized bets). OK then that makes a difference but you still have cut down somewhat on your theoretical implied odds, as they will occasionally go in.

[nicky g]

By the way if the stacks rarely go in in this situation then I don't think you have the implied odds to call. I suppose it depends how rarely.