Should I Ever Do This Again?

Max Weinberg · #1 09-19-2003, 09:53 PM

$25 Party.

Just posted the blinds a second ago so no real read on anybody. On the button I'm dealt 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and I limp after four limpers. SB completes and the BB checks.

Flop is J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

EP bets $1, LP calls, and I raise the pot to $5 even to see if they like their hands very much and possibly get a free-ride to the river. Well, that didn't work out too well, as the SB cold-calls five, EP folds, and LP calls also.

Turn is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to me and I move all-in, over-betting the pot by maybe four dollars or so. I believe I knocked out the jack in EP and now have a tentative top pair to go with my flush draw. SB now folds, but LP calls the all-in.

Good move or stupid?

1800GAMBLER · #2 09-20-2003, 08:09 AM

I don't like it. I do like the play when you hit a pair and a flush draw on the flop then move in, since your odds of making a hand are doubled compared to doing it on the turn.

Plus after the amount of callers on the flop it doesn't look like they are going to fold.

SoCalPat · #3 09-21-2003, 05:26 AM

Why do I have this funny feeling that your opponent has J9o? If he does, I hope you hit your draw.

If he's not ahead of you, and is calling your bet with nothing but a draw, I get him on my Christmas card mailing list.

Al_Capone_Junior · #4 09-21-2003, 09:41 PM

The two cold callers of your raise was a good indicator that the likelyhood of a semi-bluff working had gone way down on the turn. When someone calls a pot sized raise cold, they tend to have a hand they're not likely to give up on. Had the action been different, perhaps it would have been a better time to try such a move. I tend to be very selective when making big moves with a draw.

al

thetman · #5 09-22-2003, 03:03 AM

No

Max Weinberg · #6 09-22-2003, 08:49 PM

Yeah, he did end up on the Christmas mailing list, for being known as the guy who would call any bet once he had some money in the pot. Sitting on his left was pretty good to me that night, as he ended up re-buying about six times.

As for his hand, I still think I knocked out a weak jack somewhere along the way, but I was still behind on the turn. I'd of never guessed his hand in a hundred tries. He showed Q9o with no clubs. I did spike a club on the river and got negative reinforcement for the play, but I wasn't too thrilled about the way I did it. Suffice to say, once I saw his showdown hand I stopped pulling stunts like this and just value bet my ass off all night against him.

Ignatius · #7 09-23-2003, 03:03 PM

I like this play as you have a very good chance to get a better hand and - equally important - a better flush draw to fold (or at least deny him any implied odds). If the J would have been offsuit, then your play would lose some of its appeal.

tewall · #8 09-23-2003, 06:11 PM

I can't see how your play cannot be +EV. (How's that for a nice double negative). You have 3 ways to win. You might get both players to lay down their hand. You might hit your draw if behind. And you might have the best hand.

Nofoldholdem · #9 09-23-2003, 08:00 PM

I would have called.

Max Weinberg · #10 09-24-2003, 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have 3 ways to win. You might get both players to lay down their hand. You might hit your draw if behind. And you might have the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is what I was thinking on the turn. I think the EV gets a little shady when I selectively forget that two guys cold-called a pot sized bet on the flop.

My thinking was mainly what you brought up. The cold-callers were most likely on draws, and when I paired up on the turn I figured I didn't want them hanging around anymore. I'm not looking at the exact hand right now, but I don't think there were many logical draws out there except the flush. So when I picked up a pair I thought there was a reasonable chance I had the best hand.

What I realized about this after the hand is that I tried to steal the pot twice in the same hand. It didn't work on the flop, so if I was paying attention, it probably wouldn't work on the turn. My turn play was just a gradual progression from the flop. Well, if they like their hand for five dollars on the flop, let's see if they like their hand for their stacks on the turn.

It's Party $25, and I should have remembered that these are the games where they will call you no matter what, so big semi-bluffs are a no-no (well, except when they bet so small that they're crying for you to check-raise and steal the pot from them). I think the play has some value, but its primary value during this session was to show me who the easiest target at the table was.