O/8 AA...not all they're "cracked" up to be?

[chesspain]

I am pretty much a LL HE player, but last night in my home game we played a number of orbits of O/8. On three occasions, I had AAxx (where one x might be a mediocre, unsuited low card), and I raised and/or kept up with a PF raiser, and ended up either losing on showdown or correctly mucking after the turn when others began betting like crazy.

When I reread the chapter on O/8 in Siberstang's Winning Poker for the Serious Player, I noticed that AAxx is not even mentiond as a "best" or "strong" hand.

Do all of you O/8 players see AAxx as a second best hand waiting to happen?

[crockpot]

well done! you've already learned what 70% of the omaha players i face will never understand: aces suck in limit omaha/8, unless the sidecards are good. i regularly muck hands like AA78, and i'm sure most of the winning players here would agree with me.

my rough playing standards for aces are AA45 or better and AAKT or better. i might relax those a little if the aces are double suited. in a pot-limit game, having seen how profitable aces full can be, i would usually play any AAxx if i could limp in.

[chesspain]

[chesspain]

Does you advice above about mucking unsuited AAxx still apply even in a somewhat short-handed game (say 4-6 players)?

[crockpot]

i would consider raising with AAxx here to narrow the field, but you're most likely to still end up with a pair of aces, which is not a great hand. however, in a shorthanded game, a hand like AA67 has some chance for winning low, so this is much better than AAT9 in this sort of situation.

i prefer to avoid shorthanded limit omaha/8 games altogether, as it's just not a game that lends itself well to shorthanded play. (that is, unless you can find tight opponents used to full game hand standards, but where are they?)

[Buzz]

"Do all of you O/8 players see AAxx as a second best hand waiting to happen?"

Eric - Well...No. I don't see AAXX exactly that way. But I understand what you mean.

There's no doubt that players with a Texas hold 'em mind set regularly overplay aces in a loose Omaha-8 game. For anyone having such a mind set, AAxx might be a second best hand waiting to happen.

The value of AAXX depends on what the XX is and also on suitedness. All AAXX double suited hands are playable, in my humble opinion - as are all but a couple AAXX single suited hands. And most AAXX non suited hands are also playable, in my humble opinion - but here there are many exceptions (none of them involving at least one more wheel card).

But, yes, hands like AA78n don't look very good to me. I generally wouldn't pay to see the flop in a casino with such a hand - and I might not even pay to see the flop with such a hand in a loose, passive private game. If you do play hands such as AA78n for a single bet from late position in loose, passive games, you have to get off the hand if you don't hit the flop squarely. And you don't want to pay a double bet to see the flop.

In a tournament, at or near the final table, I'd probably raise with the hand, hoping to steal the blinds but not minding if one of the blinds defended (depending on various factors including position and relative stack sizes). Maybe I'm wrong - it would be interesting to see a one-on-one simulation with AcAd7h8s against a random hand. (But you probably don't want to play the hand against a bunch of random hands).

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[tiltboy]

In Bill Boston's book of O8 simulations, of the top 250 hands in the analysis, 142 contain AA. There are 259 total hands that contain AA (I counted those in the book), so 54.8% of these hands are very good.

It is interesting to note that in his analysis, many otherwise good hands like AAKKds are NOT in the top 250. That one, for example, ranks 382nd.

Just some things to mull over.

[crockpot]

if my pre-flop raise or call will put me all in, i won't mind doing it with many AAxx hands. with money to bet after the flop, however, you are giving money away by raising with AA87 in a loose game, or by calling bets with it later on.

this is why, even for a pure math game like loose omaha/8, simulations can be bad for you.

[tiltboy]

Ranks:
AA78ds - 150
AA78s - 271
AA78ns - 1451

I think if you are unwilling to call a single small bet with AA78ds you are giving away too much. Sorry, but you are going to have to do better than that to convinced me that simulations are bad for me.

[crockpot]

i'll call one bet with AA87ds. less than double suited, it goes in the muck and i forget about it.

don't forget that you want multiway action with this hand (since you won't get it heads up) and you are a lot less likely to get it holding two aces.