Is this an easy fold?

[Gainsay]

Hi, this is a hand from micro-limit online, so the table is very loose.

I'm 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , and call pre-flop from UTG + 1 after UTG calls. Everybody else folds except the button, and both blinds, who all call.

The flop is :

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

The betting goes check, check, bet. At this point I fold, is this the right play? My only real choices are bet or fold, right? What if my hand had instead been a pair of jacks?

One person called the raiser. The turn and river didn't help anybody, and it turned out the raiser had J2 and lost to an ace.

[biggambler]

At very low limits if no one bets, most likly they are staying in just to see what comes up. Actually two kings is better then one king. There is a good chance that no one has a king and that your pair is still high. Bet the flop to get information.

[JimRivett]

I would have been inclined to raise here just to see where you are. You may well have the best hand on the flop.


What if my hand had instead been a pair of jacks?

Then you would have raised pre flop, cleared out the button and blinds, would have been checked to on the flop, you would have bet the flop and won the hand right there.

Jim

[Aces McGee]

Raise it up.

With two kings already out, it's unlikely that anyone has a third, and if they do, you'll know soon enough to get out of the hand. Pocket pairs will also bet here, but you would have heard from JJ-AA preflop, so you're only behind to 99 and TT.

The bet in front of you is most likely an ace, a four, or an out-and-out bluff. You're ahead of all three. Raise to maximize your winnings, protect your two pair (which is vulnerable to any cards higher than 8 on the turn and river), and to get more information on the bettor's hand.

Aces McGee

[Gainsay]

Thanks for the replies.

It seems like neither of you think I should be too worried about an A, Q, J, 10, 9, or 4 on the river or turn. I didn't like the idea of betting to gain information since about half the time that information doesn't seem like it will tell me much after the turn. The way these micro-limit games go, 2+ people will call you all the way to the showdown even when they have nothing, so I'm not sure betting to clear people out who have draws to beat me really works. I appreciate that it is certainly good advice for tighter tables. In a tighter game I should expect betting to be +EV because people will tend to fold hands like J 10 in the face of 2 bets after the flop?

[Aces McGee]

I didn't like the idea of betting to gain information since about half the time that information doesn't seem like it will tell me much after the turn. The way these micro-limit games go, 2+ people will call you all the way to the showdown even when they have nothing

In that case, raise to get more money out of the people who will call you down with nothing.

Furthermore, I don't see all that many of them re-raising with nothing, so I think raising for information still has merit. If they call, chances are you're ahead. If they raise, you can probably get out (depending on the player).

Aces McGee

[Bob T.]

I don't think that you made a bad fold, but obviosly, one of your opponents was willing to bluff at a paired flop, and another would call him down with Ace High. Put that in your notes about those players. I think that the bet came from UTG, instead of one of the blinds, makes it more likely that he has a king, instead of a 4. How many hands with a 4 in it, are you going to play UTG? If one of the blinds had bet, and it was folded to you, I think that I would have considered that it was more likely that they were betting a four, which would make raising a better play.

As it turned out, the bettor played J2 UTG, so you really can't tell what he might have.

There is a different flop, that is similar, that you need to be more wary of, if the flop comes 44K, it is much more likely that someone who bets has a king, and if they have a four, you are drawing to two outs anyway, so in that case, a fold is very likely a good idea.

[Gainsay]

Another hypothetical question about this hand.

What happens if I raise, the button calls, the SB folds, and the BB calls. Then the turn comes :

Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

and the betting goes check, then bet to me. Should I fold now? I've only been playing for a few weeks, and felt like I was chasing too many pots when situations like this came up, so maybe I've switched to playing too conservatively.