Jam 5th street with both an open-straight draw and a 4-flush?

[kelvin474]

It's Party 3-6 stud. Antes $.5 and bringin $1.

I get (2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img])J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I limp with 3 other players. The J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is the highest upcard. (Raise in case I make Jacks to win headsup?) Catch a fourth club, the 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], on fourth street. Clubs are falling a bit dead (three other clubs are out). I call a bet on 4th, as does everyone else.

Fifth street, no more clubs come out, but a 5 and a 2 both pair their doorcards. I catch a non-club 3, giving me a flush draw and a straight draw. Since I have one of the remaining 5's and one of the 2's, I feel like my hand will be good if I complete one of my draws. The player with the 5 doorcard has been betting all the way, then folding to river bets/raises a few times recently, and the player with the pair of 2's showing is new, but has played several very weak starting hands in the time he's been here.

On 5th, the open 5's bet, the 2's call. Is a raise called for with my 2 3 4 5 and four clubs? The Aces and sixes are totally live. The result soon.

[kelvin474]

I raised fifth street. Both players with paired door-cards called. Sixth street, I catch the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for the wheel straight, and there's a bet and a call in front of me. I raise again (with my raggy board J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). Maybe it looks like I've made Aces up? I don't know. River doesn't make me a flush, it's the Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Checked to me on the river, I bet, they both fold (lol! guess they couldn't beat aces up). I take the pot (yeah!)

[patrick dicaprio]

1. there is no reason to raise here to get it heads up on third. it wont happen and in any event a jack isnt high enough to try. but you may want to raise to build a pot.

2.i would not raise on fifth. what do you hope to accomplish? if they have trips then you will get reraised. just because your hand doesnt mean that you should raise on fifth here. if there were only one paired doorcard maybe it would be worth a shot but i would just take the cheap card here and see what happens.

pat

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
I get (2 5 )J . I limp with 3 other players. The J is the highest upcard. (Raise in case I make Jacks to win headsup?)

[/ QUOTE ]

A Jack isn't high enough to want to play someone heads up.

[ QUOTE ]
On 5th, the open 5's bet, the 2's call. Is a raise called for with my 2 3 4 5 and four clubs? The Aces and sixes are totally live. The result soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

A raise? You would normally consider folding to two paired door cards. Since you have a 2 and a 5 you can limp. At that point, you didn't have a hand, clubs were looking weak, and a low straight is a loser too often. You would raise to try and win the pot immediately, hoping your board would scare them, but your board wasn't scary J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and from your comments it didn't appear they would fold.

[Dynasty]

I think the 5th street raise is good. My gut tells me it's slightly +EV not considering how it impacts future play. Without paired doorcards I'd do it for sure. (because you have a 5 and 2, I'd still do it).

Also, you may get checked to on 6th street allowing you to take a free card when your chances of making a hand have gone down.

[7stud]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the 5th street raise is good. My gut tells me it's slightly +EV...

[/ QUOTE ]
On his raises, he was getting 2:1 from his opponents. So, whether the 5th street raise was +EV depended on whether his odds of winning the hand were better than 2:1 or worse than 2:1. If his odds were worse than 2:1, those raises were -EV, if his odds were better than 2:1, then those were +EV raises. I ran some simulations of different hands his opponents might be holding at twodimes, and here are the results:

.30 = 2.33 to 1 (two pair, trips)
.37 = 1.7 to 1 (pair, trips)
.45 = 1.22 to 1 (pair, two pair)
.54 = 1 to 1.22 (pair, pair)

Therefore, the only way the raises could have been -EV is if one of his opponents had two pair and the other had trips(or better holdings). You have good instincts.

One thing I wondered about is if you will raise with 4 to a flush on 5th street when two players hit their door cards, why not raise on 4th street?

[kelvin474]

7stud,

On 5th, I picked up a straight draw as well.

I calculated this using a program a friend and I put together:

4th street: chance of a straight or better by the river is 39 pct.

5th street: chance of a straight or better by the river is 54 pct.

The paired doorcards didn't concern me much because I thought these players would have a difficult time making a fullhouse, since I had one of each of their doorcards. I thought of it as a value raise / free card play, since i was likely to be last on the next betting round.

So that's what i was thinking on 5th. why not on 4th? good question. Do you like a raise on 4th? it could actually save me half a bet maybe since if i miss 5th, i could get to 6th st. for 3 dollars.

[Andy B]

I sometimes complete for value on third street once several players are in. If you change the Jack to a King, I usually complete, if my clubs are live (no more than one showing).

I would have raised on fourth street if my cards were more live. With three of your flush suit out, you only have a call.

I think that you have a raise for value on fifth street. Take away a paired door card, and you definitely have a raise for value. Of course you bet your hand once you make it.