When to draw in Omaha?

[bebopalula]

I must apologise for so many questions in the last few days. It's just that I'm keen to learn and can't find much info. I generally can work out pot-odds but I still need some basic guidance for when to stay with the play in Omaha hilo. My main questions are: when should I keep drawing with 2 pair or a set? I also am reluctant to bet a the best possible straight on the turn bc I fear a flushdraw or a boat on the river. Am I too fearful?

Any tips would be appreciated -maybe you know of any good articles I could read.

Thanks,
bebopalula

[Aragorn]

>>en should I keep drawing with 2 pair or a set?

This is a very complicated question. Which two pair? Which set? Is there a low draw or a flush draw out there? How many players are in? What has been the action up to now? All of these factor in. There is no simple answer. I would only advise that bottom sets are a disaster in O8. You tend to win a little or lose a lot with them. I play then cautiously if at all.

>>I also am reluctant to bet a the best possible straight on the turn bc I fear a flushdraw or a boat on the river. Am I too fearful?

In a word, YES! If you have the best hand, play it aggressively. If someone is going to draw out on you, make them pay as much as possible. With the nuts for low I am cautious unless there are at least 4 players in the pot because I might only get 1/4. With the nut high, I don't usually stop raising.

One place to be careful is if you have the nut straight and someone gets into a raising war with you. They may have the nut straight and draws to a better hand, such as a flush draw. In that case, you don't want to keep putting money into the pot.

[chaos]

With hands like two pair or a set your worst fear is making a full house and losing to a bigger full house.

When you flop two pair they come in three varieties: top two pair, top and bottom pair or bottom two pair. The last two are vulnerable if your opponents have a bigger two pair or a bigger set. I generally will only consider continuing in a multiway pot with top two.

The same reasoning applies to flopping sets. You can flop top, middle or bottom set. The higher the set the better. Also note that top set is vulnerable to a turn or a river overcard to the board giving one of your opponents with a pocket pair a bigger set.

With straights you want to have the nut straight. Lesser straights are junk. Even the nut straight is vulnerable to bigger straights, flushes and full houses. If on the turn you still have the nuts AND there is a reasonable chance you will have the nuts on the river you have to charge your opponents the maximum price to outdraw you.

In order to be happy with a straight you would generally also want a redraw to a bigger hand. Here I might start my raising on the flop. More than one player may hold the nut straight. In this case the player with the redraw is free rolling.

You also need to consider whether you will be splitting the pot with a low hand. If you hold only the nut straight and your opponent has the low and a flush draw, you are the one being free rolled.

[tiltboy]

[ QUOTE ]
I also am reluctant to bet a the best possible straight on the turn bc I fear a flushdraw or a boat on the river. Am I too fearful?


[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't bet here you are giving your opponents infinite odds to draw out on you.

[gte910h]

If you don't bet here you are giving your opponents infinite odds to draw out on you.

I always hated that quote of Skalansky's. It not always right, especially for Omaha. Or rather, you ARE giving them infinite odds, however that doens't matter, you STILL shouldn't bet.

In Omaha, you can ALREADY have a made hand, even heads up, you can be a 2-1 dog to his draw. That's right folks, 66% of the cards the dealer is going to add to the board are going to make you lose your hand. It is NOT *always* correct to bet when you think you have the made hand in Omaha, and there are draws out there. For instance:

Everyone folds to the button limps. SB folds, BB checks.
Button's Hand:Ah 2c Th Kc
BB's Hand:As 2d Jc Js

Flop: [Qh Jh 4d]

BB has a made hand here. However the button has 3 outs for each of his broadway cards plus 9, plus also all the other hearts. The drawing hand has a total of 21 single card outs. There are 23 cards in the deck that aren't single card outs for him. With all straight and flush possiblities plus them having the same low cards, the "drawing hand" is a favorite. You shouldn't bet when you're not the favorite. You should take a free card and see if you improve.

[tiltboy]

The specific situation he described was on the turn, not the flop. I agree that a made straight on the flop is not necessarily a hand to bet and often is a hand to fold, but I've found it to be extremely rare when a made straight* on the turn is not a betting hand. Please feel free to disagree and post a rebuttal.

*assuming it is the nut straight and there is no possible flush or full house yet

[crockpot]

an extremely rare case:

Omaha Hi: 40 enumerated boards containing Jc Tc 7h 3h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7c 3c Jh Th 26 65.00 14 35.00 0 0.00 0.650
9s 8s 9d 8d 14 35.00 26 65.00 0 0.00 0.350


heads-up, you should definitely bet the nut straight on the turn, as a draw like this is pretty rare. multiway, you're much more likely to be a collective underdog when the board is very prone to higher straights and flushes, as above. in a multiway pot, i might check at limit play, but bet at pot-limit.

[crockpot]

didn't see the hi-lo thing in your original post. whether or not you choose to bet or call with your straight depends a lot on the number of low cards on board. if there is no low possible, you should bet or raise here unless there are a ton of possible flush and higher straight cards. if there are two low cards out, you may even want to fold, as in most situations you need a hell of a lot of draws to miss to win the whole pot. on a hand such as the 89 with the JT73 board in my last post, you have no outs to a nut hand for the whole pot.

[iblucky4u2]

Top two pair are normally worth playing, although top set is normally a much better hand. With top two you have 4 outs to the nuts - with top set 10.

One rule I adhere to is if there is a low already made and I do not have a made high (top set is NOT a made hand) then I am reluctant to get into a raising war on the flop or turn. Too often a made low is free rolling me with a flush or str8 draw. Imaging 2-4-8-Q (two of a suit) boards where you have QQ. What card can you want other than a pair? That means you have 10 outs and 34 bad cards. The only card that does not make a str8 is a K - with the chance of an overpair [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] If you get aggressive with the top set you will wind up loosing a lot of $ but winning only 1/2 of pots where you fill up.

Str8s other than broadway are vulnerable. You can push AAKQ ds type hands where you make a high str8 and have strong redraws. Say the board is AJ8-T with one of your flush draws alive. PUSH IT! Make those low draws pay - there are no bad cards for you - only good ones. The worst that will happen is the low will come and you will get 1/2. Any high flush or pair will give you the scoop. If someone bets into you or raises you (also with broadway) push it to the limit.

[punkass]

Yes there are situations were an excellent draw "beats" a "made" hand on the flop (sets are not made in Omaha 8). But on the turn, I believe the nut straight has to bet out against a flush draw.