This one still hurts!

[poker91701]

I am [poker91701] and I am new to the forum, but I have been following the posts for a number of months. I am new to the study of Poker and I am putting a great deal of effort into understanding 7 card stud. That said, I lost this hand to [orangebirds] with a Ace high flush to 4 of a kind (six's) which he catches on the river. Did I miss something here? Did I bet this wrong? I orangebirds thought I had trips, an obvious error on my part. Was that a correct assumption? BTW this was an on-line .5/1 low limit game.

3rd Street:
Dealt to Neidutseon XX Jh
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ]
Dealt to poker91701 Kc
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks
Dealt to ribica XX Jd
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s
Dealt to Scott___ XX Ts
Everyone calls for a .25¢

4Th street:
Dealt to Neidutseon XX Jh 9c
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h As
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c 7h
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks Jc
Dealt to ribica XX Jd 9h
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s Qc
Dealt to Scott___ XX Ts 5d
poker91701 double bets (1)
FLAMIN calls (1)
orangebirds calls (1)
ribica calls (1)
mustangmike calls (1)
Scott___ folds.
Neidutseon folds.
SirRoyal1 calls (1)

5th street:
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h As 8d
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh 2d
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c 7h Th
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks Jc 5s
Dealt to ribica XX Jd 9h 7s
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s Qc Js
poker91701 bets (1)
FLAMIN calls (1)
orangebirds calls (1)
ribica calls (1)
mustangmike calls (1)
SirRoyal1 calls (1)

6th street:
Dealt to SirRoyal1 XX 3h As 8d 4h
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh 2d 7d
Dealt to FLAMIN XX 2c 7h Th 5c
Dealt to orangebirds XX Ks Jc 5s X
Dealt to ribica XX Jd 9h 7s Ah
Dealt to mustangmike XX 8s Qc Js 9d
poker91701 checks.
FLAMIN checks.
orangebirds bets (1)
ribica calls (1)
mustangmike calls (1)
SirRoyal1 calls (1)
poker91701 calls (1)

River:
Dealt to poker91701 [ Ad, 4d ] Kc Kh 2d 7d [ Kd ]
orangebirds: Ks Jc 5s 6h
poker91701 bets (1)
orangebirds raises (2) to 2
ribica folds.
mustangmike: got me
mustangmike folds.
SirRoyal1 folds.
poker91701 raises (2) to 3
orangebirds raises (2) to 4
poker91701 calls (1)

Orangebirds wins with quad sixes
Orangebirds [6s 6d] Ks Jc 5s 6h [6c]

[CJC]

Hello,

Your opponent played like an ass.
Typical online low limit poker.

I actually played in one of these super-low limit online games the other day at Party. One hand I paired my doorcard with ACES and got 5 callers.

All I can say is that micro-limit online stud plays nothing like a real game.

I will stick with my $10-20 cash games at Foxwoods

I will say one thing.. It appears as though you only started with overcards in your hand. I would wait for a better starting hand in these games.

CJ

[poker91701]

yes I understand your point. Up until now I have only played at B&M's in Vegas and have held my own. I do not feel confortable with low limit online play it is very different than the Poker I am familiar with. I am not sure how to play these low limit games. Seems like most stay in and only drop off if they cannot make their draw. It seems to boarder more on luck than skill. Let's deal 7 cards to every one and see who come out on top....Will this change with a 3/6 online game? Or are all games below 10/20 going to be like this?

Thanks,

[CJC]

Hi,

In My expereiencel it gets better at the $3-6 games. The $5-10 games play more like 'normal'.

Personally, I have just gotten turned off from online poker in general. MY play is much better in live games where I have a much easier time 'reading' my opponents. I can pick up a lot of things live that I just can't do in online poker.

CJ

[7stud]

Hi,

[ QUOTE ]
I am new to the study of Poker and I am putting a great deal of effort into understanding 7 card stud. That said, I lost this hand to [orangebirds] with a Ace high flush to 4 of a kind (six's) which he catches on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it hard to believe you are putting a great deal of effort into learning 7 card stud when you started with that hand. Your starting hand was pretty much three random cards with one of your Kings showing elsewhere. I think you need to study what good starting hands are. Also, you only had a pair of Kings going into 7th street--what made your hand so good that you think you were the victim of a bad beat? Your opponent was ahead of you with 3 sixes and he could have paired up for a full house just as easily as you made your flush.

Check out Roy West's "7 Card Stud: How to Win at Medium and Lower Limits" to get an idea of what to play. The decision whether to play on 3rd street is one of the most important decisions you will make in a hand. You can also learn what you are supposed to do when somebody pairs their door card on 4th street(= fold most of the time).

Finally, after learning what good hands are, you will have to learn to adjust for loose games where nobody folds, e.g pairs go down in value and drawing hands(= flushes and straights) go up in value. The reason for that is, lets say your big pair has a .60 probability of winning against a hand that has only a .40 probability of winning. Against two such hands, your probability of winning is .60 x .60 which is .36, so your probability of losing is .64, and .36 to .64 is 1.8 : 1 odds against you winning. Since, your opponents are going to be putting a combined two betting units into the pot for every betting unit you put in, you are getting 2:1 odds, so you still have a slight advantage--your odds of winning are 1.8 to 1 and you are getting paid 2 to 1 on your money. Increase your opponents to three, and the probability you will win the pot drops to .6 x .6 x .6 = .216, so the probability you will lose is .784 giving you odds of 3.6:1 against you winning the pot. Since your three opponents will only be putting in a combined 3 betting units per every unit you bet, you are now not getting the right price--the odds against you winning are 3.6 to 1, but you are only getting paid 3 to 1 on the bets you put into the pot. The idea is that if your hand is fairly good without too much chance of becoming a strong hand, the more players drawing against you, the worse it is for you.

[CJC]

Hi 7Stud.

While I agree with you that this posters hand starting requirements were 'minamally marginal' at best.

If I have read the post correct.. he paired his doorcard with KK on 4th..and the opponent with the pair of sixes should have been long gone. cause ( and again if I read post correctly ) he caught 3rd 6 on 6th and 4th on river.

LAter,

CJ

[poker91701]

"I think you need to study what good starting hands are. Why would you play that hand? It's pretty much three random cards with one of your Kings showing elsewhere."

Good question. I will grant you that this was not a strong hand to play on 3rd street. The reason I played this hand was because I had a live overcard "A", and I had two to a flush. My thinking was, that if I could get in cheap, I would. Had anyone full bet or raised I would have been gone. As you can see everyone did limped in...As you mentioned drawing hands go up in value and pairs go down thus my thinking was to just limp in and see what developed. This was my effort at being a little looser in a very loose low limit game.

In my defense ;-) , I did download my hand history and I saw 4rd street on less than 5% of the hands delt.

I did read West's book, and thought it was very informative. You're right, West would probably not have recommended playing this hand into 4th street, although "I think" it would have been a close call given the live overcard and the flush draw potential.

As for 7th street. I had 4 to a flush and the pot was at $20.00. I had 4 diamonds and only 4 other diamonds seen on other boards, or 8 total. There were still, potentally, 5 diamonds out with most of the cards delt. Why would I fold at this point for a $1 bet when the odds were still way better than 20 : 1 that I would get a diamond on the river?

When I did get my flush, I put my opponent on trips, after all there were no paired cards on his board. Three of his six's were hidden, he got them on his 1,2, 6, and 7th. His board going to the river was [Ks Jc 5s 6h] no pairs, nor a flush or a straight draw.

I would be interested in getting some other views on staying in for the River card in this hand. Given the board and the pot odds I think I would have had a -ev to fold at that point.

Thank you for your honesty. I posted this hand to get view points that will help me improve my skills, your post definitly gives me food-for-throught. I think you have a point about not getting in on third street, but I do not see your logic on mucking the hand before the river.

[Ed Miller]

As for 7th street. I had 4 to a flush and the pot was at $20.00. I had 4 diamonds and only 4 other diamonds seen on other boards, or 8 total. There were still, potentally, 5 diamonds out with most of the cards delt. Why would I fold at this point for a $1 bet when the odds were still way better than 20 : 1 that I would get a diamond on the river?

Where did he suggest that you fold on 6th or 7th street? BTW, when your opponent goes nuts on the river with a ragged board, his most likely holding is a full house.

[Ed Miller]

Who cares what his opponent "should" do? It's what he should do that we care about.

[CJC]

Just simply discussing the hand!!!

Since when in a discussion concerning a hand do we JUST concentrate on what the poster does? Its the whole play of the hand that counts.