15/30 - To 3-bet or not to 3-bet?

Dazarath · #1 12-01-2005, 08:31 AM

Villain (SB) is a 17/12/1.76 over 20k hands. I think I remember MP3 being a fish with some ridiculously high VPIP.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, SB raises, Hero..?

Villain in this hand is something like 45/6/0.8 over a few hundred hands.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $15.
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 (poster) checks, 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.66 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, Button raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

River: (16.33 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero..?

Piiop · #2 12-01-2005, 08:40 AM

I'd 3bet hand 1. There are plenty of other hands he could have that you're crushing.

In hand 2, I don't really like the open limp 9handed with a poster. I guess if there were a lot of loose-passives behind you it's ok, but i'd rather open-raise. I'd bet-call the river. Since he put in all the action on the flop, I think he could have a set, AcAx, or QcJc as well as AcQ/Jc.

#3 12-01-2005, 08:58 AM

3-bet hand 1. Villain could well have an Ace or some kind of flush draw.

Hand 2 I would check-call the river. If you are planning to bet-call the river you have to be 66% sure you have the best hand, and I think here you are not. If villain capped the turn for a free showdown I give him credit for it.

Jeffage · #4 12-01-2005, 12:24 PM

Easy 3-bet on the turn in hand one. He could easily have something like AxK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. And if he has a flush, oh well, you have outs. Set of aces is only hand you're in huge trouble against and if he has that, them's the breaks.

I'd prob checkraise the flop on hand two but bet-three bet is cool also. The rest is whatever. You're beat by one hand, what's the problem? Bet the river. If he raises, call bc 4 bets went in the previous street. If he is major aggro, go ahead and reraise but getting 4-bet will both suck and blow.

Jeff

krishanleong · #5 12-01-2005, 01:44 PM

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I'd prob checkraise the flop on hand two but bet-three bet is cool also. The rest is whatever. You're beat by one hand, what's the problem? Bet the river. If he raises, call bc 4 bets went in the previous street. If he is major aggro, go ahead and reraise but getting 4-bet will both suck and blow.

Jeff

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I'd guess a river cr/fold to 3-bet has a greater EV than bet/call.

Krishan

krishanleong · #6 12-01-2005, 01:47 PM

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I'd bet-call the river.

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Bad line. He's betting everything and raising only hands that beat you. Check call is better than bet/call.

Krishan

Jeffage · #7 12-01-2005, 02:25 PM

Interesting, except there is no way I'm folding to a 3-bet if I checkraise that river. Particularly online where there is a 4-bet cap and people are more likely to 3-bet a non-nut flush there desp. the turn action. Obv, if he 3-bets your checkraise, you are beat most of the time, but not enough to have me lay down for one bet (and have the table see my lay for one more bet after I checkraise the end).

Jeff

golferbrent · #8 12-01-2005, 05:32 PM

Hand #1

3 bet and call down a 4 bet. Bet river if checked to

Hand #2

Lead river and call a raise.

golferbrent · #9 12-01-2005, 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'd prob checkraise the flop on hand two but bet-three bet is cool also. The rest is whatever. You're beat by one hand, what's the problem? Bet the river. If he raises, call bc 4 bets went in the previous street. If he is major aggro, go ahead and reraise but getting 4-bet will both suck and blow.

Jeff

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I'd guess a river cr/fold to 3-bet has a greater EV than bet/call.

Krishan

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c/r river is an interesting line... but if 3 bet I would want to puke a little. Plus you aren't laying down 2nd nuts on river for 1 more online. That is why a bet call is a better line IMO.

Folding is never an option here. A fold would be a terrible play... the only question is how many bets do you want to get in on the river. If 3 go in and the 3rd doesnt come from us it is bad for our hand... that is why I would go for the bet/call line to insure at least one goes in, but not more then 2 bets.

Dazarath · #10 12-01-2005, 07:54 PM

Ok, thanks for the responses.

Hand 1: This is how the action went. I 3-bet because I reasoned his hand range included aces, two pairs, not just flushes. Villain capped. The river didn't help me. I called the river bet. Is this a fold UI?

Hand 2: I checked intending to check/call. I guess I reasoned that his flop action was either TPGK, two pair, set, flush draw (probably nut draw). After the turn action, I figured it was obvious I had the flush, and now the nut flush was more likely. I pussied out on the river and checked, intending to call a bet. After the hand, I was thinking bet/call was better than check/call.

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I'd guess a river cr/fold to 3-bet has a greater EV than bet/call.

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Bad line. He's betting everything and raising only hands that beat you. Check call is better than bet/call.

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Hmm.. could you explain your thinking here? I had relatively little reads on the villain at the time, other than the PT stats. If the villain was willing to cap the turn without the nuts, might he be willing to 3-bet the river without them as well? I understand that 0.8 AF is pretty low, but not so much for a 45 VPIP. There's also the occassional "passive" donk, who will raise the entire way donk with "monsters" (ie. set+), regardless of the board.