top 2, monotone flop, big pot

surfdoc · #1 11-25-2005, 10:53 PM

CO in this hand is new to the table and playing pretty loose and aggro but it has only been 20 hands. Button is standard LAG at 55/16/1.3 over 140 hands. UTG is 81/10/.4 after 80 hands.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Is this a routine cap vs this crowd?

Flop: (13.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (14.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, Hero calls.

Pot is big, am I ever good here? I think I can lay this down if button calls.

Final Pot: 16.20 BB

Catt · #2 11-25-2005, 11:02 PM

I think you should C/R the flop instead of waiting until the turn.

I think you win pretty infrequently here, but I'm not sure I could or should lay this down on the river.

#3 11-25-2005, 11:10 PM

everyone who calls one bet on the flop will have the odds to call two (and they won't be cold-calling), at least if they are on a draw... what does the c/r accomplish? at least on the turn they might not have the proper odds then.

Catt · #4 11-25-2005, 11:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
everyone who calls one bet on the flop will have the odds to call two (and they won't be cold-calling), at least if they are on a draw... what does the c/r accomplish? at least on the turn they might not have the proper odds then.

[/ QUOTE ]

It accomplishes getting more chips into the pot with the very likely best hand. Just because they have the odds to call doesn't mean you don't bet the best hand. It also accomplishes possibly folding a small diamond when we lead the turn.

Edit: To be clear, we're closing the action. It's not like we're C/Ring to face anyone with 2 cold. If we just call, we still have little opportunity to face anyone with two cold on the turn -- we essentially have to donk-bet and hope that CO raises a worst hand to fold out hands that would have the odds to call one but not two on the turn -- that's quite a parlay.

imitation · #5 11-25-2005, 11:16 PM

Ram and jam the flop yo

Spicymoose · #6 11-25-2005, 11:19 PM

I think you need to bet-3bet this flop. The 3-better might get scared on the flop, and check through, which would be awful. You are giving him a second opportunity on the turn, which I also think is bad. Given how you played, I think a river call is fine, but I wouldn't of played it like you did. At least check raise the flop if you checked to begin with...

Spicymoose · #7 11-25-2005, 11:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
everyone who calls one bet on the flop will have the odds to call two (and they won't be cold-calling), at least if they are on a draw... what does the c/r accomplish? at least on the turn they might not have the proper odds then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about what you are saying. Should we not bet AA if we know our opponent is on a flush draw simply because he will call? In this situation, we are very likely to have the best hand, and we want to get value out of this. We might even get people with baby flush draws to fold.

surfdoc · #8 11-25-2005, 11:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
everyone who calls one bet on the flop will have the odds to call two (and they won't be cold-calling), at least if they are on a draw... what does the c/r accomplish? at least on the turn they might not have the proper odds then.

[/ QUOTE ]

It accomplishes getting more chips into the pot with the very likely best hand. Just because they have the odds to call doesn't mean you don't bet the best hand. It also accomplishes possibly folding a small diamond when we lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the flop CR gets more money in when I likely have the best hand but nobody will be making a mistake drawing to anything. The main reason I waited for the turn is that my equity is going to change dramatically if a diamond or another broadway card hits. I would not do this unless I was fairly certain that someone bets the turn. This way I can trap them for a double sized bet when my equity is much better. I do lose the opportunity to fold a small diamond but even though these guys are pretty awful it is less likely that the 3 bettor or the guys coldcalling 3 have a small diamond. (of course they will sometimes with a pocket pair and a diamond)

Spicymoose · #9 11-25-2005, 11:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
everyone who calls one bet on the flop will have the odds to call two (and they won't be cold-calling), at least if they are on a draw... what does the c/r accomplish? at least on the turn they might not have the proper odds then.

[/ QUOTE ]

It accomplishes getting more chips into the pot with the very likely best hand. Just because they have the odds to call doesn't mean you don't bet the best hand. It also accomplishes possibly folding a small diamond when we lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the flop CR gets more money in when I likely have the best hand but nobody will be making a mistake drawing to anything. The main reason I waited for the turn is that my equity is going to change dramatically if a diamond or another broadway card hits. I would not do this unless I was fairly certain that someone bets the turn. This way I can trap them for a double sized bet when my equity is much better. I do lose the opportunity to fold a small diamond but even though these guys are pretty awful it is less likely that the 3 bettor or the guys coldcalling 3 have a small diamond. (of course they will sometimes with a pocket pair and a diamond)

[/ QUOTE ]

How sure are you that the turn isn't getting checked through?

Catt · #10 11-25-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
everyone who calls one bet on the flop will have the odds to call two (and they won't be cold-calling), at least if they are on a draw... what does the c/r accomplish? at least on the turn they might not have the proper odds then.

[/ QUOTE ]

It accomplishes getting more chips into the pot with the very likely best hand. Just because they have the odds to call doesn't mean you don't bet the best hand. It also accomplishes possibly folding a small diamond when we lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course the flop CR gets more money in when I likely have the best hand but nobody will be making a mistake drawing to anything. The main reason I waited for the turn is that my equity is going to change dramatically if a diamond or another broadway card hits. I would not do this unless I was fairly certain that someone bets the turn. This way I can trap them for a double sized bet when my equity is much better. I do lose the opportunity to fold a small diamond but even though these guys are pretty awful it is less likely that the 3 bettor or the guys coldcalling 3 have a small diamond. (of course they will sometimes with a pocket pair and a diamond)

[/ QUOTE ]

This pot is really big -- it's going to be tough to give anyone improper odds to call bet(s) if they're playing a legitimate hand on this board against a PFR and PF 3-bettor. When you can't protect, bet for value.

As to waiting until the turn - you're opf course correct that your equity can change quite a bit from flop to turn depending on what falls; however, there's a ton of value to be had from single diamonds on the flop, especially if CO has a big A and will make it three bets allowing you to cap. And you're not going to be folding for one bet on the turn if a diamond falls, right? So be waiting for the turn, you forgo however many additional bets you could collect on the flop so that you're able to (1) collect an extra BB from one or both players if all goes according to plan, or (2) save bets by folding when it goes check-bet-raise. I think the trade-off isn't sufficient here, and I'd much prefer trying to get more bets in on this flop.