The Jenin "Massacre"

The final body count:

33 Israelis

56 Palestininians

Funny looking massacre?


bruce

Oh really, and who performed this "count"?


And how many of each side's dead were heavily armed troops and how many were civilians?


Of course, we could get a more accurate picture if someone less partial went and investigated, like ... oh yeah, the Israelis don't like that idea for some reason.

I think you left out: "and how many were heavily armed terrorists?";-)


From what I've read, Israel may have just cause for concern that this "impartial" UN committee may actually be far from impartial, and that it may produce "findings" (i.e. "conclusions") rather than just the facts without opinions attached. By the way, the UN has a heavily Pro-Islamic/Anti-Israel bias...not unexpected, considering the sheer number of Islamic states in the world vs. one Jewish state. What's worse, the UN will probably always have such a bias...I read that there are 1.2 billion followers of Islam in the world, compared to a mere 15 million Jews. An impartial investigation might be a great idea...if it's really impartial. The prejudices of the UN cannot be simply overlooked, and sending along some Europeans who have a background in social affairs rather than military analysis, and allowing them to draw and publish conclusions (rather than just the facts discovered), is not exactly conducive to impartiality either. I don't know all the details and I'm not saying this is the exact or entire picture,; I'm just saying that Israel may indeed have just cause for concern about the makeup, procedures and intentions of the UN committee. By the way, how about the UN stepping forward and declaring the PLO a terrorist organization? I don't think they have done this. The PLO obviously is, but instead the UN declared Israel a terrorist state. If nothing else that should be ample evidence of strong UN bias right there.

"I think you left out: "and how many were heavily armed terrorists?";-)"


Probably a lot, if you accept Israel's position that anyone who shoots back when the IDF shells and demolishes civilian homes, office buildings, schools and infrastructure is a "terrorist."


I appreciate why Israel would prefer a laundry list of random facts ("a body was found here," "it was a man," "he was dressed in ....") without drawing any obvious inferences. I have no idea, however, why you think that a report that "may produce 'findings' (i.e. 'conclusions') rather than just the facts without opinions attached" would constitute unfair bias. The whole point of the inquiry is to help resolve a dispute over what happened. How this can be done without "conclusions" is beyond me.


It's pretty clear that Israel has something to hide about its conduct in Jenin. It's orignal objections, that the team lacked members with military experience, were met by including military officers and counter-terrorism experts. But now this isn't good enough either. According to Sharon, in today's NYT, "No effort to doubt us or put us on an international trial will prevail." No one being allowed to "doubt" the official Israeli line.


"the UN has a heavily Pro-Islamic/Anti-Israel bias...not unexpected, considering the sheer number of Islamic states in the world vs. one Jewish state."


No, this doesn't follow. The UN General Assembly votes critical opposed by Israel carry in numbers far greater than what the "Islamic" countries could ever muster, typically with Europe and Latin America voting overwhelmingly against Israel and the U.S. and the occasional Central American client thrown in. As for the Security Council, the Islamic countries have no permanent representation there at all, yet half of the U.S.'s 70-odd vetoes (the record) have concerned the Middle East, usually Israel. The voting pattern reveals that it's not the Islamic countries ganging up on Israel, it's the U.S. and Israel alone against the rest of the world.


"the UN declared Israel a terrorist state"


When?

Let me see if I can guess about who is calling the count a "final" one ....


Initial Palestinian reports of hundreds killed in the Jenin refugee camp appears to be wrong. The BBC reports some 45 dead and another 20-30 Palestinians unaccounted for. I'm not sure why this can't qualify as a "massacre," the term for "savage and indiscriminate killing." It's not like there's some minimum number of bodies required.


The real issue isn't whether there was a massacre, but whether Israel violated laws of warfare that it insists, together with the U.S., on holding other countries to. There are very serious, well-documented claims of denial of medical services for the wounded. Unless you think it's okay for our enemies to do this, Israel should be called to account.

Perhaps I am not recalling it exactly correctly when I said that the UN declared Israel a terrorist state. However there was a resolution in recent years (I'm sure you can help me out with this) which was something along those lines.


Maybe Israel has something to hide or or maybe they have legitimate concerns...or maybe both. I know this: if the US had been coming under repeated attacks as Israel has for the last two years, we would have already wiped out as many as necessary to stop it. Period. If that had to mean a whole country gone then that's what we would have done--there is no way in hell we would have tolerated such a long string of continuing attacks upon our homeland. Actually, I think Israel has shown immense restraint.


Most of the world, numerically speaking, is comprised not of first-world countries, but of second and third-world countries. Certainly the US is Israel's staunchest supporter, and Europe is somewhere in the middle (but Europe has a great deal of trade with Islamic countries which can contribute to biased interests as well). ALL totalitarian governments in the world typically vote against Israel of course. So do most poor countries. So do ALL Islamic countries. Given that Islamic countries are pretty much anti-Semitic (it's just a question of degree) I don't see how you can say that the sheer weight of numbers of Islamic countries doesn't contribute to a UN bias. Europe has a lot of trade with Arabs which can bias their votes as well.

When Palestinians put terrorist gunmen and bombers into ambulances in order to hide them and move them, and in order to execute attacks from them, how can you really expect Israel to allow unimpeded access by these vehicles? I mean, seriously. If the Palestinians want to fight fair that's one thing. But hiding gunmen in mosques, or miltary supplies in hospitals (as Saddam Hussein did) isn't in keeping with calls for humanitarian concerns. If the Palestinians wanted ambulances to have free reign, they shouldn't have been secreting armed combatants, snipers and bombers in them. I read a report of one of these ambulances opening fire on Israeli soldiers. So it's THEIR fault. End of story.

Might is right. Anyone with a gun in their hand is a terrorist. And it's OK to kill them. And all their neighbours as well. Just in case.

I'm saying self-defense against deadly attacks is all right. If we were being attacked repeatedly in a similar deadly manner, by, say, Mexico (just as a geographical example), we would do whatever we had to in order to stop it.


I'm not saying the first thing we would do would be to flatten the whole country; of course not, that would probably be the absolute last resort which would almost surely not come to pass. However we would not tolerate it--period--and what's more, we should not tolerate it. If we were Israel right now I bet the Palestinians would have long ago realized they had better curb terror instead of support it, because we wouldn't have put up with continued terror attacks for nearly so long. The recent incursions would have happened LONG ago and would have been one of the FIRST things we did if Bush were the Prime Minister of Israel and we were citizens there coming under regular terror attacks. Israel has truly shown much restraint. It only took ONE major attack on the USA to result in the recent actions in Afghanistan--and none too soon, either--and if you think I'm a nutjob, just remember I called for NATO and the free world to hunt down the world's worst terrorists months before 9/11 occurred. I read enough to know how evil-minded and dangerous these actual nutjobs truly are. You probably just figured that out after 9/11.

“I read a report of one of these ambulances opening fire on Israeli soldiers. So it's THEIR fault.”


The only incident like this I’m aware of allegedly occurred last July. Israel retracted it’s allegation after Red Crescent (basically, the Palestinian branch of the Red Cross) obtained a TV news video of the incident showing that the IDF had fabricated its account. (Red Crescent society home page and http://www.palestinercs.org).


A Jerusalem Post story last month (cited below), which quotes an IDF spokesman, is consistent with the statement I found at electronicintifada.com: “To date the Israeli occupation forces have not been able to document a single episode in which Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS, the Arab World's version of Red Cross) personnel were involved in any activities other than the discharging of their duties to attend the injured and dying.”


Although the facts about this practice are rarely reported and virtually never emphasized in maintstream U.S. media, I doubt there’s much question that Israel restricts access to medical services in order to terrorize Palestinian civilians.


Here are five examples (from 120) from a petition to the Israeli High Court of Justice submitted in March 2001 by Physicians for Human Rights – Israel and the Palestinian Red Crescent Society:


23.1.2001 – loss of consciousness (location: Ramallah area)

A 29-year-old woman from Ghania in the Ramallah area had suffered from anaemia since giving birth five months before (2 months before the incident). When she lost consciousness in her home, her husband took her in his own car in the direction of Ramallah hospital. The car was stopped and delayed for 25 minutes at a military roadblock near the Israeli settlement of Dolev. The husband called First Aid headquarters for help. A Palestinian Red Crescent vehicle immediately set out from El-Bireh in the direction of the roadblock. On its way, the ambulance met the husband’s car, after it had finally been allowed entry. The medical team found the woman dead in the car. The ambulance took her body to Ramallah hospital to confirm death.

20.1.2001 – Bleeding (location: El-Ahali)

An ambulance evacuating a bleeding woman was shot at by soldiers, damaging its tires. The soldiers confiscated the team’s radio, cutting off possibility of contact. They searched the ambulance and told the team to lie down on the ground for 15 minutes. After this, at gunpoint, they ordered them to drive on, while one of the tires was flat. The ambulance then continued to the house of the patient, just 10 meters away. The ambulance team evacuated the patient while calling another ambulance to take her to Alia hospital.

7.1.2001 – road accident (location: Bidya – Nablus hospital)

An ambulance evacuating three people injured in a road accident was detained at Hawara roadblock, and forbidden entry. The soldiers’ claim was that the patients had not been injured in a road accident. After coordination with the Red Cross, the ambulance was allowed passage - after a delay of 45 minutes.

9.12.2000 – Gas inhalation (location: Arrabeh – Sili Ed-Daher)

When an ambulance reached a high school for boys in order to evacuate a patient who had inhaled gas, the ambulance team was stopped by military vehicles, and the soldiers asked questions and caused provocations. The pupils begged them to allow the ambulance to pass. When the relief officer got out of the ambulance, the soldiers hit him with a large stone, after which he fell to the ground; the soldiers also shot at the ambulance, hitting a man inside it. One of the Israeli officers said to the relief officer: ‘we want you to die, you and the pupils’. The ambulance was delayed for 15 minutes.

15.2.2001 – cardiac arrest (location: Arrabeh – Jenin hospital)

An ambulance evacuating a patient who had had a heart attack was delayed for about 15 minutes by numerous unmanned barriers - cement bricks and dirt ramps - on the roads. The patient died.


A more graphic example can be seen in the following link, a report where IDF troops refused to allow a civilian Palestinian mother, the wife of a civilian school administrator, to obtain medical treatment after their tank fired into their home. The ordeal was captured by an Israeli film crew accompanying the soldiers, and it shows the soldiers ransacking the house (nothing was found), her kids looking on while Mom bleeds to death (she died when they eventually got her to a hospital). You can download the video. http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/view...t_censor020319 (Or search CBC News (not CBS) keyword "Ismail Hawarjeh."


IDF attacks on Red Crescent ambulances and emt’s are a category by themselves. As of April 5, 2002, Red Cresent reported 180 IDF attacks on their vehicles, injuring 136 personnel and damaging 80% of their ambulance fleet. Medical personnel are routinely detained, harrassed and beaten, and sometimes simply shot and killed.


Meanwhile, back in the states, we read little of this. Instead, we stories like the ones you cite, basically IDF allegations reported as facts. For example, in March of this year there was a widely circulated report (I first read it in a Wall Street Journal editorial) about a bomb belt found underneath a small boy in a Red Crescent ambulance. It’s been reported as fact all over the internet, particularly by pro-Israel hardliners. A closer examination reveals a more interesting story.


According to the Jerusalem Post, 3/30/02, the explosives were discovered at a roadblock. “The IDF Spokesman noted that this is not the first incident in which an ambulance has been used by Palestinians to transport weapons or terrorists, citing the female suicide bomber - a nurse - who perpetrated an attack in Jaffa Road Jerusalem in January.” That’s an odd precedent to cite, given that Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs admits (on it’s website) that she wasn’t a “nurse” but an off-duty medical secretary and that “Israeli security officials do not yet have a clear picture of how Idris made her way from Ramallah to Jerusalem.” Instead, Israel claims ambiguously that she may have used “a medical vehicle or medical accreditation” to carry out her attack. In other words, the government has no idea if Red Crescent vehicles were involved.


The Post article includes another interesting admission by the IDF: Until this incident, “we were unable to provide evidence [of ambulances and medical teams for the transfer of terrorists and explosives], but now we have succeeded and a terrorist has been apprehended with 10 kilograms of explosives.” In other words, until two months ago, after years of harassment, the IDF had no evidence that ambulances were being used to transport terrorists or explosives.


Also consider this coincidence, reported in the Jerusalem Post on 3/28/02:


"The ambulance driver, Islam Jibril, a resident of the Balata refugee camp near Nablus, told interrogators he received the belt from Muhammad Titti, a senior Tanzim activist close to Palestinian Authority West Bank security chief Marwan Barghouti."


Marwan Barghouti was one of the most respected Palestinian activists in the West Bank (he interviewed in Newsweek last month), with a long history of trying to work with Israel and renouncing terrorism, although he recently had refused to criticize the suicide bombers and had called for military attacks against the IDF in the occupied territories. The IDF arrested him and turned him over to Shin Bet last month. So the first evidence that a Red Crescent ambulance had carried explosives also ties a key Israeli opponent. A real coup, this one.


Now consider Red Crescent’s version of the facts, first, from it’s press release of 5/27/02:


“The ambulance, en route from Nablus to Ramallah, with a mother, 3 children, a doctor and a PRCS medic were first stopped and searched at a checkpoint south of Nablus. It was permitted to pass. The ambulance passed three other checkpoints before it was forced to stop south of Ramallah by an Israeli army patrol which fired shots in the air as the ambulance approached. The ambulance stopped. All passengers were ordered out and the Israeli soldiers told them that the ambulance was carrying explosives. The driver, Mr. Islam Jibril, was arrested. All others were released. The driver has been with the PRCS for over 6 years and has treated many injured Israelis and Palestinians over the past year.”


Another coincidence: the ambulance passes three checkpoints before being stopped by a seemingly waiting army patrol.


PRCS’s latest press release announced that it was suing the IDF for fabricating the event:


“Legal proceedings will commence on Apr 27th. PRCS will demonstrate Israeli army collusion and plans to plant an explosive device as part of ongoing disinformationand slander campaign against Red Crescent. Recent released images show that thesupposed Israeli army "flying" checkpoint was "somehow ready" with video cameras to capture the event. Additionally, army statements that the driver "confessed" have now been proven false.”