flopping top set on str8 board with action

#1 11-18-2005, 03:15 PM

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $0.25 BB (9 handed) hand converter

Button ($29.05)
SB ($26.35)
BB ($29.75)
Hero ($44.20)
UTG+1 ($25.45)
MP1 ($22.05)
MP2 ($4.75)
MP3 ($24.75)
CO ($12.20)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls $0.25, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, MP3 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Button calls $0.25, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.60) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1, Hero calls $1, MP2 folds, MP3 raises to $4, Button folds, SB folds, BB raises to $14.55

Hero ...

Is this always a push?

BluffTHIS! · #2 11-18-2005, 03:27 PM

This should almost always be a fold unless you can call yourself allin getting multiway action because otherwise you don't have the proper money odds to fill. Especially since with reasonable players who make this straight they will also be holding some of your fill cards lessening your outs.

#3 11-18-2005, 03:55 PM

You might refer to this post for additional insights.

#4 11-18-2005, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This should almost always be a fold unless you can call yourself allin getting multiway action because otherwise you don't have the proper money odds to fill. Especially since with reasonable players who make this straight they will also be holding some of your fill cards lessening your outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
In this case I can re-raise and put the other 2 stacks all-in. They also have similar stack sizes so I don't have the same problem as Chimi had in the hand he linked (i.e. a very large H2H side pot if he can get all-in, therefore much lower pot odds). I can't imagine BB folding here, but can I expect MP3 to call all-in, assuming they have the straight?

By my calculations, every boat out they hold robs me of 5% equity. I have 40% if they have none, 35% if they have 1, and 30% or less if they have 2 or more. Since half their cards are tied up with the QTs can I seriously expect them to have 2 or more much of the time?

I suppose in my case the chance of at least one lost out plus the possablity that MP2 folds (thus killing my pot odds) makes this a marginal push at best.

Which pleases me since I folded here (even though all my boat draws were live and I would have hit, just like Chimi's hand).

BluffTHIS! · #5 11-18-2005, 11:28 PM

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Which pleases me since I folded here (even though all my boat draws were live and I would have hit, just like Chimi's hand).

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a pity we can't past post in poker.

bholdr · #6 11-19-2005, 12:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Especially since with reasonable players who make this straight they will also be holding some of your fill cards lessening your outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is something i am learning to consider as i get deeper into PLO. It's almost like a 7cs/8 idea that holds that many third st callers tends to seriously weaken a low hand, as many of the cards it'll need are likely dead.

Bluffthis, how much will this factor into your descisions? more so in multiway pots than HU?

ty

#7 11-19-2005, 04:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It is a pity we can't past post in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny thing is that I was multi-tabling and almost pushed the flop after the initial $1 bet before I realized it was a straight board. If I had raised I'd have been pot commited and won a very nice pot (for these levels anyways).

Omaha is a bad game for people who tend to be results orientated.

BluffTHIS! · #8 11-19-2005, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Especially since with reasonable players who make this straight they will also be holding some of your fill cards lessening your outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is something i am learning to consider as i get deeper into PLO. It's almost like a 7cs/8 idea that holds that many third st callers tends to seriously weaken a low hand, as many of the cards it'll need are likely dead.

Bluffthis, how much will this factor into your descisions? more so in multiway pots than HU?

[/ QUOTE ]

It should factor heavily in your decisions to draw. And like hi/lo (and this is one of the reasons I dislike hi/lo and never play it), knowing that another player with a worse draw has either called or will call should often lead you to fold that draw, unless you are getting a bigger than normal price. Of course you can never be sure whether you are up against one set and another draw, or against two sets, but still it is an important factor.

And headsup, you often should only play a strong draw when you are more certain you are up against a set/top 2 rather than another draw. This is why it is critical to keep good notes on regular opponents so you have a good idea how they habitually play both sets and draws.

This is also the reason why you should avoid weak draws so that in the sometimes unavoidable situations where draws collide, you have the better equity in the hand. However in position headsup with deep stacks you can also draw weaker against tight opponents when you judge that you have a chance to bluff when a different draw than the one you have gets there (steal equity).

Cooker · #9 11-20-2005, 02:39 AM

I would always push if I was fairly sure both players must have hands that they will call all in with. I you feel they probably both have the straight and are both incapable of folding said straight, then I move in. Top set almost always has at least 35% equity in a pot (barring both of them having the made straight along with each having a lower set or some such fluke), so I would never mind getting all in 3 way.

I would also consider this a bit of a image play, but not so much because most people should know exactly why you made this move. I like to be seen as an action player (at least as much as possible), so I don't mind getting all in with the appearance of being behind if I figure the move is fairly EV neutral and potentially slightly +EV.

BluffTHIS! · #10 11-20-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is a pity we can't past post in poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
Funny thing is that I was multi-tabling and almost pushed the flop after the initial $1 bet before I realized it was a straight board. If I had raised I'd have been pot commited and won a very nice pot (for these levels anyways).

Omaha is a bad game for people who tend to be results orientated.

[/ QUOTE ]

A different situation with this flop would be in a raised pot which was large due to preflop action. In that case if first to act you should often just bet in case no one has the straight already and so that you don't let another nearby straight or a flush card fall for free. Then having bet, if you get raised and the pot is big enough as it often would be, you would then be getting proper odds to call allin.