Too passive?

rkiray · #1 06-27-2003, 02:02 PM

Fairly normal Paradise 3/6 game. Since it's in the morning, not as aggressive and loose as most evening games, but still slighty loose, slightly aggressive. I'm in big blind with JJ. CO-1 is first limper, co limps, sb completes. I just call here. Normally I raise with JJ, but I thought I would be a little deceptive here and just call. Also if an overcard shows up I can get out cheap. Too weak?

Flop : 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

sb checks, I check planning to raise, unfortunately, everyone checks.

Turn : 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] (4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 7 :diamond)

sb checks, I bet, co-1 raises, co folds, sb folds, I call. Too weak again?

River : 7 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] (3 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 7 :diamond)

I check, he bets, I call. Overall am I playing wimpy poker in this hand? Any guess at what CO-1 had?

ElSapo · #2 06-27-2003, 02:16 PM

Raise pre-flop. And you have to be the flop, because you can't risk giving the 5 a free card. Which,if you lost, I'm guessing you lost to that.

He could also have been looking for a free card, on the flush draw. I'd have bet the river, assuming no club, and paid off a raise. But I think bettng the flop makes all this clearer.

Aces McGee · #3 06-27-2003, 02:35 PM

I think you're being a little passive.

Slowplaying JJ for variance is fine, but if you usually raise with it, why are you all of the sudden worried about "getting out cheap" if the overcard comes, which, correct me I'm wrong, is 70+% likely. (By the way, this statistic makes me think that raising with a hand like JJ is even more vital than raising with QQ-AA, because you want to knock those single overcards out. Thoughts on this, anyone?)

On the flop, with the first preflop limper coming in such a late position, I wouldn't attempt a check-raise. They aren't going to bet unless the flop hit them, and you can't assume that it did, with all those rags.

Since you posted this with the heading "too passive?", I'm guessing you won, and he had A3.

Aces McGee

rkiray · #4 06-27-2003, 02:44 PM

Wow,

You guys are both good. I lost to a turned straight. CO-1 had A5o. So you both figured that out. I don't know why he didn't bet his oesd on the flop. I thought the checking was ok on the flop, I need to vary my play sometimes so I'm not too predictable and I thought this was a good time. You have me thinking though. Maybe it woudl have been better if I had QQ or KK. Also JJ does not play well against 3 opponents. You generally want either 1-2, or 5 or more. Therefore I thought that I didn't want to put more money into this pot.

J.R. · #5 06-27-2003, 02:45 PM

not as aggressive and loose as most evening games...CO-1 is first limper, co limps...sb checks, I check planning to raise

Who were you expecting to bet, the LMP open-limper or the cutoff caller? The raggedy flop further compounds the likelihood that it will get checked through. Bet the flop. You are also vulnerable to overcards, so protect your hand.

I think the check can be OK when against stubborn, aggressive opponents who will over-play their hands post-flop and not put me on JJ here, but you do have bad position, so nothing wrong with rapping here.

rkiray · #6 06-27-2003, 02:50 PM

Yeah, not my best moment. The rags on the board should have made me bet. But I've been doing really well with check raises in most Paradise games (you can't tell from these posts since I tend to post hands that either didn't work or well I thought I played poorly, those are the hands I think I can learn the most from). You and another poster pointed this out, and I believe you are both correct.

Aces McGee · #7 06-27-2003, 02:52 PM

I edited the stuff about the turn out of my post because I'm afraid to give too much bad advice so early in my career. I would've said A5, except that I had a feeling you won, just bc you posted the hand with the heading you did.

As for him not betting his open-ender...I know a lot of low-limit players and beginners who don't do that. I never would even have considered it, except that I read it in a book.

Aces McGee

Ed Miller · #8 06-27-2003, 04:34 PM

This is a wretched board for your hand. You shouldn't play this aggressively... and you should probably consider folding postflop, especially since the pot is tiny for lack of a preflop raise.

I would have folded to the turn raise without question.

rkiray · #9 06-27-2003, 09:31 PM

Yeah, I've always had a problem with being too aggressive. When I first started out I was a borderline maniac. Then I went through a weak tight phase. But by nature I'm an aggressive person. Overall I think my poker game is doing fairly well. I find it entertaining that you say I'm playing too aggresively on a hand that I'm worried I played too passively. But you may be correct. I need to think about it.

rkiray · #10 06-27-2003, 09:36 PM

If you read enough of these posts, you'll see I generally post losing hands. These are the ones I need to learn from. You are right, lots of people don't understand that betting an oesd into 4 people is +EV. Heck, three months ago I didn't do it. So it didn't really surprize me. I probably look like an idiot on these boards since I mostly post plays that don't work.