Open ended straight flush draws

[Guernica4000]

If you hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is

Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is there a mathematical difference when calling or betting than if the flop was
Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ?

I realize that in the first case if the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits you have the absolute nuts, but does this make a difference when calling for Pot odds?

My guess is that the first hand is probably better when it comes to implied odds but the same when you talk about pot odds since the number of outs is the same.

Although running some test I see that when you hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] the only hands you are behind (mathematically) are QQ, 99, and 33 but with a flop of Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] also has you dominated.

So I guess to simplify the question is:

Do you need different pot odds to call if you hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] than you do if you hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 :heart?


Thanks,

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]

Although running some test I see that when you hold J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] the only hands you are behind (mathematically) are QQ, 99, and 33 but with a flop of Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] also has you dominated.

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This does not answer your question, but a small correction to your post: with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you are also behind A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] if the board is Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (about a 3:2 dog).

[AaronBrown]

In either case, you have 9 outs for the flush and 8 for the straight. That adds up to only 15, because two of the outs overlap.

With the 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], the two overlaps give you a straight flush. That only matters for against a few hands, such as A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], or if the last card on the board pairs something to give the other player a full house or quads. But when it does matter it turns an all-in loss into an all-in win. This might happen 1 time in 100, but in no-limit with big stacks relative to the pot it can be enough to make a difference in your decision.

[Guernica4000]

So if a call is correct based on pot odds for the first scenario it is also correct on the second. Right?

[ QUOTE ]
So if a call is correct based on pot odds for the first scenario it is also correct on the second. Right?

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It's close enough. The likelyhood of it mattering is very small - the straight flush is unlikely, and the opponent is unlikely to have a hand where the difference matters.

[Guernica4000]

Thanks all.