Is this a donk-like calldown?

#1 10-13-2005, 09:31 PM

Villian is unknown. But this looks a lot like the classic take a shot at the PFR because he probably missed. I was thinking about folding the turn and river. I'm convinced that raising anywhere is pointless, well maybe the a flop raise is okay.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Borodog · #2 10-13-2005, 09:36 PM

This is an easy flop raise for me. Given what comes on the turn, you can either check behind and call the river (2 BB), or followup on the turn and check the river (2 BB). Your way costs 2.5BB.

Personally, without a read, I like a raise, bet, check line. I know the board is not drawy, but betting always gives your opponent the chance to fold that checking does not. Furthermore, followup betting with AK conditions your opponents to call you down when you have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, etc.

Edit: The board becomes drawy on the turn, actually. Even more important to bet the turn.

Harv72b · #3 10-13-2005, 09:53 PM

I agree with raising the flop. I don't agree with betting the turn...he's not laying down anything he called your flop raise with after the 5 hits, and you (probably) picked up 4 more outs to a win. Check with outs, bet without.

If I whiff the river after the above action, I fold to a bet there. The pot will be very small, and until he proves otherwise, I'll assume that UTG+1 is not leading into me with a worse hand...probably a small PP.

#4 10-13-2005, 09:55 PM

I hate calling down, because 90% of the time they have something like 99 or 77. I fold the turn unimproved after I raised the flop and he bets into me again.

#5 10-13-2005, 09:57 PM

I just don't think he's ever folding a better hand. If he's bluffing (and I think he often is) I don't want to stop him. I was thinking about raising the flop, checking the turn (that's not a A,K or Q), then calling or folding the river depending upon the board.

SackUp · #6 10-13-2005, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check with outs, bet without.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this b/c you can fold to a turn raise if you don't have outs but lose so much equity on your draw if raised?

My standard line is raise, check, F UI.

Borodog · #7 10-13-2005, 10:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with raising the flop. I don't agree with betting the turn...he's not laying down anything he called your flop raise with after the 5 hits, and you (probably) picked up 4 more outs to a win. Check with outs, bet without.

If I whiff the river after the above action, I fold to a bet there. The pot will be very small, and until he proves otherwise, I'll assume that UTG+1 is not leading into me with a worse hand...probably a small PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem with this line, but I just see so many check-call-check-folds at the lower stakes. There are so many players that will peel on any flop in a raised pot, if nothing more than to see if you follow through on the turn, and bet into you on the river if you don't. Hence I don't mind a raise-check-call strategy either against an unknown.

The real issue is what is a good "default" strategy, for use against an unknown player. Given the fact that this situation will come up rather infrequently against an unknown, I'm willing to pay one more bet to either pick up the pot on the turn or see how he's playing.

Is that a waste of a bet? Maybe.

Borodog · #8 10-13-2005, 10:05 PM

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I just don't think he's ever folding a better hand. If he's bluffing (and I think he often is) I don't want to stop him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. I would very much like undercards to fold once I've missed the flop. They have 6 clean outs to hit. This is another reason I like to bet the turn against an unknown.

Harv72b · #9 10-13-2005, 10:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this b/c you can fold to a turn raise if you don't have outs but lose so much equity on your draw if raised?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Plus it looks retarded to the rest of the table if you raise the flop, bet the turn, call a turn c/r, and then fold the river on a board like this. Basically like tattooing "implied odds" on your forehead.

Borodog · #10 10-13-2005, 10:08 PM

To further elaborate, if an unknown player sees me pay him off with UI AK here, he may be less likely to bluff me in future hands. Once I've spent a bet when he's unknown, the next time it happens, when I might have 20 or 30 more hands on him, I can more reliably interpret his river bet as a value bet with a pair than a bluff, and fold my AK.

But maybe I'm rationalizing my calling stationality on this river?