($27) Yicky KK hand

durron597 · #1 10-02-2005, 09:37 PM

Early no read.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter

MP3 (t2060)
CO (t635)
Button (t1230)
SB (t1060)
BB (t950)
UTG (t2290)
UTG+1 (t1400)
Hero (t1185)
MP2 (t2690)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t100, MP2 calls t100, 2 folds, Button calls t100, SB calls t85, 1 fold.

Flop: (t430) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t300, MP2 folds, Button calls t300, SB folds.

Turn: (t1030) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t830 (All-In), Hero ???

The_Missile · #2 10-02-2005, 09:43 PM

Folds in disgust. Chances are he hit a flush, or at least that's my read. Maybe Ax [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or a set.

Manque · #3 10-02-2005, 09:53 PM

I dunno. I think a lot of people who make a big hand on the turn love to slowplay it. Why would he want to take the pot down on the turn ,if he made a big hand, after you checked? Your hand may still be good. I figured he would reraise you on the flop with pocket jacks. I'll go out on a limb and say he's got A-J

gumpzilla · #4 10-02-2005, 10:31 PM

I'd call here, I think. The problem is that checking that turn after the big flop bet is really asking to have the pot taken away from you by 99, TT or QQ, all of which are pretty realistic hands. I think Ad with a 3, 4 or 5 plays this way frequently at this level, and I think a flush probably bets smaller or waits another street to let you fire again given your show of flop strength. So call.

durron597 · #5 10-02-2005, 11:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is that checking that turn after the big flop bet is really asking to have the pot taken away from you by 99, TT or QQ, all of which are pretty realistic hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what's the alternative, push? Then he just folds all those hands except maybe QQ. Checking is clearly correct because he will bet a lot of PPs that he would fold if I am the one doing the pushing. The only reason not to check is that I give a free card to a naked A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], but I don't see a lot of naked A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hands that call the flop.

So if I check w/the intention of calling (or raising), that is CLEARLY superior (IMO) to pushing myself. The question is, do I check fold.

How often do you give credit to him calling the flop with a flush draw? Maybe he has like the A, 2, 6 or 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] giving him plenty of outs to call the flop?

gumpzilla · #6 10-02-2005, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]

So if I check w/the intention of calling (or raising), that is CLEARLY superior (IMO) to pushing myself. The question is, do I check fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only thing is if you're giving a free card to a diamond, but this isn't a big concern, so I prefer check-calling to pushing as well. My point was just that you shouldn't fold.

[ QUOTE ]

How often do you give credit to him calling the flop with a flush draw? Maybe he has like the A, 2, 6 or 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] with another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] giving him plenty of outs to call the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard to say. There are certain opponents that I run into occasionally who will never fold a flush draw, and a flush draw and two overs will call basically every time here. So it's certainly very believable that you could be up against the flush. That said, I think you could be up against a pretty wide variety of overpairs (with or without diamond) and other stuff, and I probably call.

KenProspero · #7 10-02-2005, 11:12 PM

My 2c.

With this betting pattern, what hands could he have? Do you think that it's correct for him to call your earlier bet with a flush draw? If not, why do you think he'd slow play it when he actually hit a flush?

I think your possibilities here are either he actually has a flush, or he has some kind of hand (probably a lower pair) and is using the scare card on the turn to try get rid of you. Based on the information given, I don't think there's any way to read this.

Given the pot odds, I probably swallow hard and call. I expect to see the flush a lot of the time, but I'll win enough to make it +ev in the long run.

wuwei · #8 10-02-2005, 11:12 PM

With that many opponents and our stack size, I often push this flop. You can get calls from smaller overpairs, flush draws, etc., and if you don't you've taken down a nice pot.

The Yugoslavian · #9 10-02-2005, 11:27 PM

I like pushing the turn. You know I'm all about inducing bets/bluffs from weaker hands in order to call for value but IMO the pot is too big now to give a free card to some random hand with a diamond in it or a naked A.

Lots of those pps will call ur turn push anyway (I mean, how will they all of a sudden give credit to a J?). The $27s are plenty soft here that you can't give the villian credit for a set or a str8 or whatever just b/c he called ur flop bet (which I like btw). Frankly, I think you push any turn here.

If you want to check to induce worse hands to go allin, then you have to call.

I'm not folding KK here in any event (unless it's checked thru the turn and another diamond comes).

Yugoslav

wuwei · #10 10-02-2005, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like pushing the turn. You know I'm all about inducing bets/bluffs from weaker hands in order to call for value but IMO the pot is too big now to give a free card to some random hand with a diamond in it or a naked A.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this as well.