texas shootout: A beatable game??

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!! · #1 09-06-2005, 05:18 PM

there is a game dealt in a nearby casino called texas shootout. can someone do the math to see if this game is beatable? this is how it works:

The game uses a 6 deck shoe. Players make a bet, the dealer deals 4 cards to each player 4 to the dealer. Players pick the best holdem hand and throw away the other 2, then the dealer picks the best hand (based on a chart) and a board is dealt. Each hand that beats the dealers hand wins. The only edge that the house pushes (assuming you dont vary from the house rules of hand picking) is in a push, or if you make "bonus bets" (which are clearly huge sucker bets and i wont bother to describe the payouts). Any player can "chop" their hand: they can play 2 hands out of the 4 dealt to them and they must match their original bet for the new hand. Because of this option i would think this game is beatable. Am i right? one of you super math guys should work thisw out. I will try to locate the dealers hand chart and post it if that helps.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!! · #2 09-06-2005, 05:21 PM

here are the house hand rules and the hand ranking charts:

HOUSE HAND CHART
1. Highest Pair, 8's & Up 8. Ace High
2. A-J or Better 9. Face Card High, Suited
3. Any Pair, Suited 10. Face Card High
4. Any Pair 11. Connected Cards, Suited
5. Ace High Suited 12. Connected Cards
6. 10-J or Better, Suited 13. Highest Cards, Suited
7. 10-J or Better 14. Highest Cards

HAND RANKING CHART
1. 5-of-a-Kind, Suited 7. Flush
2. Royal Flush 8. Straight
3. Straight Flush 9. 3-of-a-Kind
4. 5-of-a-Kind 10. Two Pair
5. 4-of-a-Kind 11. One Pair
6. Full House 12. High Card

RiverDood · #3 09-06-2005, 07:01 PM

How often do pushes occur? That's the central question.

I'm going to guess that they're common enough to give the house a solid edge. In single-deck holdem, at least 1 in 20 pots are split. Maybe more. That's 5% of the hands going to the house.

Remember, pushes happen far more often than just the times that you both have J8. They also happen when one of you has AK and the other has A6 and the board has two pair. They happen when the board makes a straight, flush or full house and neither of you can improve it. They happen when the board is JJA97, and one of you has 45 and the other has 26.

In six-deck holdem, duplicate hands become slightly more common. And splitting hands may be much more nuanced than it looks. A644 could be played as A6 and 44, but if the dealer has a perfectly ordinary hand like J7, he's not far behind at all.

My guess is that you could lose slowly at this if you played well, but it's not nearly as pro-player as it seems right away.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!! · #4 09-06-2005, 07:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How often do pushes occur? That's the central question.

I'm going to guess that they're common enough to give the house a solid edge. In single-deck holdem, at least 1 in 20 pots are split. Maybe more. That's 5% of the hands going to the house.

Remember, pushes happen far more often than just the times that you both have J8. They also happen when one of you has AK and the other has A6 and the board has two pair. They happen when the board makes a straight, flush or full house and neither of you can improve it. They happen when the board is JJA97, and one of you has 45 and the other has 26.

In six-deck holdem, duplicate hands become slightly more common. And splitting hands may be much more nuanced than it looks. A644 could be played as A6 and 44, but if the dealer has a perfectly ordinary hand like J7, he's not far behind at all.

My guess is that you could lose slowly at this if you played well, but it's not nearly as pro-player as it seems right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what im trying to figure out. can you or someone create charts that show exactly the EV of situations? What if you created a card counting system similar to 6 deck blackjack.

Mr. Curious · #5 09-06-2005, 07:33 PM

Have you checked the Wizard of Odds yet?

AaronBrown · #6 09-06-2005, 08:31 PM

The Wizard of Odds has unfortunately not tackled this yet, nor does he promise to do it anytime soon. He did give a link to the full rules.

My feeling is this game can be beaten because you are allowed to play multiple hands and see other players' cards; plus they deal down to about one deck remaining. The dealer cannot take advantage of that information, but you could. It's probably not much help in setting your bet, but it could help a lot in splitting your hand.

It would take some work, but I think there's a good chance of success.

fnord_too · #7 09-07-2005, 12:46 PM

If this is spread in a casino, played against the house, I highly doubt it is beatable. There are usually very strong rules in place governing those games, which mandate a house edge in a certain range, and compliance must be proved. I assure you, the casino has done the math; in fact, I would guess it was done independantly by at least two parties, then was vetted by whatever gaming commision governs the casino. So, basically, your chances of the game being beatable are the chances that a major math error got through all those entities. Not likely I would say.

eOXevious · #8 09-07-2005, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If this is spread in a casino, played against the house, I highly doubt it is beatable. There are usually very strong rules in place governing those games, which mandate a house edge in a certain range, and compliance must be proved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well Black Jack is proven to be mathmaticlly beatable as long as you count cards, so maybe the Holdem game is too.

The way I look at it is this... Casino's make most of their money on slot machines. So Mr X goes to the table game cause he finds slots boring, wins a little money cause he counted a card or two. Mrs X lost in slots, so honey can I borrow some of your table winnings for slots?

Black Jack is beatable, but only by about 1/2 percent over the house... assuming you count cards right. Most people will loose in Black Jack though, cause they play it for a long time and can't count cards....

I say if you are going to look at Holdem hands all day, just sit down at a raked table, you probably would make more money if you play those cards just as right as you would play Texas Shootout.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!! · #9 09-07-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If this is spread in a casino, played against the house, I highly doubt it is beatable. There are usually very strong rules in place governing those games, which mandate a house edge in a certain range, and compliance must be proved. I assure you, the casino has done the math; in fact, I would guess it was done independantly by at least two parties, then was vetted by whatever gaming commision governs the casino. So, basically, your chances of the game being beatable are the chances that a major math error got through all those entities. Not likely I would say.

[/ QUOTE ]

the house pushes a massive edge in bonus bets, which almost all players play every hand (and a 5$ bonus bet gets you an "envy" bet, which gives u more ways to win, but is clearly a bad bet). i woould be willing to bet that this game is beatable given that you have free information.

arod4276 · #10 09-07-2005, 07:21 PM

well your wrong.