Min check raise

[iceman5]

In my experience, when you get minimum check raised on the flop in a raised pot, the guy has a monster (set) maybe 90% of the time. But Im not sure if it always means the same thing in higher stakes games. Here are 2 hands

#1) $2/$4 NL

UTG limps, MP limps, I raise to $20 with AA. Only the UTG calls.
I have a full stack and he has only $175 to start the hand

Pot is $50. The flop comes 965 rainbow. He checks, I bet $40 and he check raises the min to $80.

I can
a) fold fearing a set
b) push all in since hes so short
c) call and get the rest in on the turn

Hand #2) $5/$10NL

MP has posted a blind. UTG limps. I raise to $50 with KK. Only UTG calls.

Pot is $125. The flop is 994. He checks, I bet $100 and he check raises the min to $200. He started with about $800 and I have him covered.

Ive only seen him play a few hands but I get the "fishy impression" Hes playing things like 75s UTG so although Ive only seen a few hands, he doesnt know anything about position so I have to assume hes not good.

At lower stakes, I would lean towards folding right now because its going to cost me my whole stack to find out if he has a 9 or 44. I just dont see people min check raising in a raised pot like that with 88 or something like that.

If you dont want to fold, lets say you call and then he bets $300 at the the turn. What now?

[ObnxNole]

Hand # 1: No way I am folding with AA when the guy only $175 to start the hand. Put the rest in the middle.

Hand #2: I usually like to bet about half the pot with an overpair and trips on board but as you played it is fine. I would call his min raise and tread lightly after that. In my experience a min raise on the flop screams of a monster hand about %90 percent of the time. Hope it worked out for you.
-Obnxnole-

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand # 1: No way I am folding with AA when the guy only $175 to start the hand. Put the rest in the middle.

Hand #2: I usually like to bet about half the pot with an overpair and trips on board but as you played it is fine. I would call his min raise and tread lightly after that. In my experience a min raise on the flop screams of a monster hand about %90 percent of the time. Hope it worked out for you.
-Obnxnole-

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, to make this easier. On hand #2, I did call his flop check raise and a 7 hit the turn. He bet $300. Whats you definition of "tread lightly" here?

[turnipmonster]

you guys are saying a minraise screams monster but I think it's more of a checkraise in general. the amount of the checkraise doesn't matter much.

would your thoughts change if the guy raise the full pot?

I generally treat minraises the same as I would pot raises with made hands, I think the only real difference is when you were betting a draw and get minraised. it doesn't seem to have much of an upside for this reason alone.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]

OK, to make this easier. On hand #2, I did call his flop check raise and a 7 hit the turn. He bet $300. Whats you definition of "tread lightly" here?

[/ QUOTE ]

if I called the cr if would be because I didn't think he had a 9 so I'd put him in on the turn every time. calling the flop cr and folding the turn is chip burning imo, he's going to bet the turn.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
In my experience, when you get minimum check raised on the flop in a raised pot, the guy has a monster (set) maybe 90% of the time. But Im not sure if it always means the same thing in higher stakes games. Here are 2 hands

#1) $2/$4 NL

UTG limps, MP limps, I raise to $20 with AA. Only the UTG calls.
I have a full stack and he has only $175 to start the hand

Pot is $50. The flop comes 965 rainbow. He checks, I bet $40 and he check raises the min to $80.

I can
a) fold fearing a set
b) push all in since hes so short
c) call and get the rest in on the turn

Hand #2) $5/$10NL

MP has posted a blind. UTG limps. I raise to $50 with KK. Only UTG calls.

Pot is $125. The flop is 994. He checks, I bet $100 and he check raises the min to $200. He started with about $800 and I have him covered.

Ive only seen him play a few hands but I get the "fishy impression" Hes playing things like 75s UTG so although Ive only seen a few hands, he doesnt know anything about position so I have to assume hes not good.

At lower stakes, I would lean towards folding right now because its going to cost me my whole stack to find out if he has a 9 or 44. I just dont see people min check raising in a raised pot like that with 88 or something like that.

If you dont want to fold, lets say you call and then he bets $300 at the the turn. What now?

[/ QUOTE ]

On hand #1, you're getting better than 2:1 with a push... you're often behind, but you've got more than .33 EV.

On hand #2: a lot of tricky $5/10 dudes love to splash around against tight opponents when there's a pair on the flop, and no big cards. I see that flop minraise a lot, and opponent is usually full of crap. (Here's opponent's likely thought process: tight pf raiser might have AK, and then he will fold; he's so tight he might even fold jacks.) A good strategy with kings or aces on this kind of way ahead/way behind board is to call their flop raise, then raise (or check-raise) allin on the turn. You'll see a smaller pp or air a lot more often than you'll see a 9, and you'll get a call from a smaller overpair.

If you held queens or jacks, it might be good to end the hand on the flop, since there are some overcards that could come and make you nervous on the turn. 3-bet the flop, consider folding if pushed allin.

[iceman5]

Hand #1) Im sure most people just push in because the guy is short. Thats what I did and of course he had a set. I knew he had a set. I think this is a fold even when he IS short. What eles is he limping UTG and calling a 5BB raise with that would min check raise that flop? The flop is 965. If he check raised all in, I might believe he had a pair and draw but even that is hard to believe. He would have to have 76 or 98. Not many people play that UTG and call a raise with it.

Hand #2) I raised the turn all in. He had A9.

Both hands I felt like a complete idiot because the min check raise is so damned obvious that its a monster that I think folding is correct on both cases. In the KK hand, for every tricky player who does that with 77 or with nothing, there are 10 guys who have 44 or have a 9. I just think folding to the original check raise is the best play. I had been folding in that situation for a long time at lower stakes, and I wish I did this time. He doesnt know Im folding KK

I will admit though that I do check raise a preflop raiser sometimes with any pocket pair, but I dont min check raise. Why? Because they wont fold. Thats why people continue to make that min check raise. Because they know you wont fold an overpair and they can suck you in. In seems too obvious to work, but it still does.

[ObnxNole]

Iceman: When i say "treading lightly" I mean play the hand very cautiously. It's a casebook situation where you are way ahead or way behind so how you play the hand is up to your judgment.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
would your thoughts change if the guy raise the full pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Jeah, I generally feel that a minraise shows more strength as it looks like they want you in the pot.

[flawless_victory]

both of these look like good flop folds.
im sure you are getting shown trips in both hands most of the time.