Is it time for a big laydown? Top trips / Top kicker

Ulysses · #1 04-06-2003, 03:53 PM

Loose 15-30 game.

1 MP limper, a generally terrible player. Limper is very aggressive and raises pre-flop with anything playable. He likely has a very weak hand. 1 raise in the SB w/ A [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] . BB, perhaps the worst player in the world, who has played every hand for the last two hours, calls. Limper calls.

Flop Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

I decide to checkraise the limper and get it heads up with him. I check. BB bets (This usually means he has a pair). Limper raises (This means absolutely nothing). I 3-bet. BB 4-bets. Limper calls. I 5-bet. BB and limper call. 21SB now in the pot.

Turn Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] (Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img])

I bet. BB raises. Limper 3-bets. It sure seems like BB has a full house w/ 22/88/Q8/Q2. But he's a really terrible player and might have just a queen. Limper might have a full house, but I think it is more likely he has just a queen or even a flush draw.

At this moment, I'm getting 8:1 to put in 2BB. However, it may get capped, in which case I'd be looking at about 5:1 to put in 4BB.

What to do, what to do?

Manzanita · #2 04-06-2003, 04:40 PM

Ulysses,

Both opponents cannot have a Queen so you may be facing a real hand. Against 2 poor playing opponents I wouldn't fold given the size of the pot. At this point I would just try to get to the show down as cheap as possible.

-- Manzanita

DiamondDave · #3 04-06-2003, 04:55 PM

Great post, Ulysses. It's tough to tell how many outs you have left (if you are in fact behind on the turn).

I don't think that you should abandon the idea that you are the favorite. If BB has the Qd, there's about a 20% chance he holds some other diamond - and he would be pretty excited about betting! Either of these guys might also be playing AA or KK much differently than you would have.

It might turn out that you are behind with dead cards, but you can't let bad LAPs run you off legit hands so easily. I would be inclined to mentally hold my nose and just raise.

haakee · #4 04-06-2003, 06:12 PM

I would have a lot of trouble laying down this hand. I'm guessing limper does not have a full house unless he had a hand like Q8 or Q2 (he'd probably raise a pair preflop?). A flush draw would not surprise me. Is BB the type to bet out trips on the flop? Most bad players will wait until the turn. I'd guess he has maybe QJ or something like that. I'd call these guys down. I think there's a reasonable chance you're ahead here.

elysium · #5 04-06-2003, 06:45 PM

hi ulysses
the odds of being in the lead here are easily worth calling it down. JTd and a Q with weak kicker are two possibilities. against two solid opponents, you could lay it down, but not against these two.

mikelow · #6 04-06-2003, 07:33 PM

You have to 110% certain in a pot this big. Call it down.

Ulysses · #7 04-07-2003, 03:18 PM

So I'm facing 2 bets to me on the turn. I'm very likely ahead of the turn 3-bettor, but who knows, he can flop a set too. But the guy who popped me on the turn after I capped the flop really should have a full house. I do something I rarely do at this table and actually think about my action for a good while. Finally, I convince myself that I just can't fold to these guys w/ this hand and toss in 2 bets. BB now 4-bets, convincing me he has a boat. MP calls, confirming the fact that he's way behind. I call and hope.

River is a very friendly looking A [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img].

I check. BB bets. MP calls. I checkraise. BB says "I don't believe it. You got lucky with your pocket aces." and calls. Limper now folds. I'm sure he had Ace-high flush draw.

Here's the best part. I flip over my AQ and BB says "man, I got a bad beat" and turns over KQ. Wow.

KQ guy played in a no-limit game w/ me 2 evenings later. What a game.

Lee Jones · #8 04-08-2003, 11:56 AM

I'll admit I've already seen the "exciting conclusion", but I was gonna be ill if Ulysses laid down his hand on the turn.

One of the (few) downsides of not being a lunatic is that one has difficulty properly modeling a lunatic's behavior. They raise for value hands that you'd be thinking about folding.

So the funny part is, they're not putting a play on you. They're not semi-bluffing their flush draw. No - they're value-raising the worst hand!

Given that, and the semi-bluffng possibilities, and the outs you have even if you are drawing, it would be unconscionable to lay down that hand here.

Regards, Lee

samdash · #9 04-08-2003, 12:59 PM

I think the BB played fine actually. He may figure you'd play AA the same way and the other player in the hand is obviously a tard.

Roy Hobbs · #10 04-08-2003, 01:21 PM

Are you playing at AJ's? I can't remember how many bets the cap is here, but if it's four bets, and you think that the big blind will cap it anyways, why not cap it yourself once you decide to call?

RH

p.s. I'm sure we have played together at some point, but I don't know if we've officially met?