KcTc - pump the big draw?

[Ulysses]

Pretty loose and wild 15-30 game.

3 limpers to me on the button w/ K [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] T [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

I raise. Blinds and limpers call.

Flop Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]

Checked to me. I bet. SB folds. BB check-raises. One good player (only opponent I consider good) thinks a long time and finally cold-calls. One other cold-caller. Back to me. I consider three-betting, but I suspect the BB will four-bet and at that point I think we're likely to lose the two cold-callers. I call. I'd say I'm 75% sure BB will 4-bet, 90% sure we'll lose one caller, 25-50% sure we'll lose both of them.

Turn 8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] (Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img])

BB bets. Strong player calls all-in. I hadn't noticed his short stack previously. Next player folds. I call.

River J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] (8 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img])

BB bets. I raise. He calls.

So, only 1 question here. Should I have 3-bet the flop?

[Ginogino]

Ulysses:
When you think about re-raising on the flop, there are just under 7 big bets in the pot. I think that makes it big enough that eliminating one or two opponents is worthwhile, if that's what happens. If they want to stay in, that's all right, too. (I disregard the big blind's being close to all in, because you didn't take it into consideration, though as I'm sure you know, it's an important element in your strategic picture, and had you noticed you'd have made it part of your thinking.) Why not charge the max for whatever draws your opponents were playing?

I defer to your judgment about what would have happened if you raised. In my experience, though, you can't be so sure you'd lose the average player here.

Gino

[MHoydilla]

If there are 3 limpers, one who you consider a good player, why did you raise preflop?

[Ulysses]

I think that makes it big enough that eliminating one or two opponents is worthwhile, if that's what happens.

Good point. I felt like I needed to make my hand, but there's a good chance hitting a King would have been good enough to beat BB - which I'd prefer to find out heads-up w/ this board. As you say, I don't mind if they stay in, but if they fold it's not so bad either. Put that way, I like 3-betting here.

I defer to your judgment about what would have happened if you raised. In my experience, though, you can't be so sure you'd lose the average player here.

What, you've played this game before? [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I agree with you, and skewed the numbers a little high for discussion purposes. They were pretty much what I was thinking at the time, though. After the fact, however, I thought to myself - that's ridiculous - who folds in a game like this after calling two bets cold?

[Ulysses]

If there are 3 limpers, one who you consider a good player, why did you raise preflop?

Honestly, I don't have a real good answer, or much of any answer for that matter. My default action with a few limpers is to raise on the button w/ two suited broadway cards. Even more mediocre stuff like JTs, QTs? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I don't mind if the blinds fold, nor do I mind if they stick around. Most times I'm going to have to make a decent hand to take down the pot, and I like my chances with these cards. And I think they are fairly easy to play well post-flop.

What are the reasons you wouldn't raise? And given that you wouldn't in this case, under what conditions would you raise KTs on the button?

[MHoydilla]

I wouldn't raise in this position because it would be to easy for you to be dominated both ways. Such as if anyone was holding KJ,KQ,A10 all of which I would consider a limping hand in EP, or MP if others had limped. I would think that the raise only has draw value as in a straight or a flush, and if there were a case where the nut flush AcXc was out your hands value diminishes greatly. I would only raise on the button with this hand againest 1, or 2 limpers only when I believe that the limpers are weak and I can out play them when we both miss the flop.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
here you can call. the thinking here is that you have an all in. you can't like your flush draw a whole lot and in the event he has trips, you can't like that situation a whole lot either. with these all ins, you need to reduce your odds a little, and while you may be squeeking by, there is little + ev. now, if you had another player or two in, you could raise for value. the all-in hurts you here too. so, a call is o.k.; now if you had the nut flush, a reraise is more doable because of the implied odds provided the board doesn't pair. there's a big difference between the nut flush and second best in these borderline situations. i think the more you look at it, the more you'll see that just calling is best here. you do have a lot of outs though.

[elysium]

hi ulysses
somehow i thought there was no question but that you should reraise the flop. i'm looking at the turn call. a very strong case at first sight can be made for raising the turn. what you didn't, o.k....i see now. yea, ulysses , you must cap the flop here in this game. you're well in the lead here. no question, get in as many bets on the flop as you can. on the turn, i like the call.

[astroglide]

i wouldn't raise preflop

[Tyler Durden]

Same here. It's a drawing hand, you don't want to give the blinds incentive to get out.