Representing a hand

durron597 · #1 08-07-2005, 11:34 PM

When he checked behind on the flop, I put him on an ace bigger than mine. How's the line?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter

Button (t2085)
SB (t2115)
BB (t760)
Hero (t2920)
MP (t3835)
CO (t1785)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero raises to t600, 1 fold, CO calls t600, 3 folds.

Flop: (t1500) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (t1500) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t200, CO calls t200.

River: (t1900) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t600,

bluewilde · #2 08-07-2005, 11:44 PM

Can you walk me through your reasoning?

What's the preflop raise? A lower-risk steal? What do you do if you're reraised? If you're called you're OOP. I'm not seeing what were you trying to accomplish.

*Edit* OK, now I think I get it, you want shortie's chips? Don't know if AT in EP is strong enough to pass through so many players. I'm afraid it will be contested, and you don't have strength or position to pick a fight. This is table-dependent, though.

On the turn you get real creative. I'm impressed; I certainly wouldn't have the confidence to try something like this. You have some wiggle room with your stack, so it really comes down how smart your opponent is. You check the flop, minbet the second king, and put in a substantial, but, due to the size of the pot, callable bet on the river. Is he gonna know that this doesn't add up and that you almost have to have AK? I don't know, at my buy-ins they wouldn't pick up on this. If you really think your guy is paying close enough attention to "know" his hand isn't good here, I think this is brilliant. You basically pay 200 chips on the turn, an otherwise ugly bet, as a cheap way of setting up a bluff the river. If you get action on the turn, you can leave unscathed. Such a cool idea.

Still, if this guy is not very attentive, this is too fancy. You can't outplay an idiot unless you have the best hand. So this is very dependent on your impression of the villain.

durron597 · #3 08-08-2005, 12:01 AM

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*Edit* OK, now I think I get it, you want shortie's chips? Don't know if AT in EP is strong enough to pass through so many players. I'm afraid it will be contested, and you don't have strength or position to pick a fight. This is table-dependent, though.

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Table was very tight, and it was only 6 handed. I have no problem getting allin against the BB given his random hand and stack size.

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put in a substantial, but, due to the size of the pot, callable bet on the river.

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Also look at his stack size. It's 2/3 of his remaining stack.

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Such a cool idea.

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You got my logic spot on. But I'm not sure how smart it was. I was so almost certainly beat here. I debated just checkfolding but then decided he didn't like the board either and I could probably get a fold. But AK wouldn't bet big on the turn.

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So this is very dependent on your impression of the villain.

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This is why I posted the hand, I think. Would you fold 88 here? What is the smallest PP that you call the river with given stack size? I felt like I represented AK pretty well, but the pot is SO big.

lastchance · #4 08-08-2005, 12:04 AM

Really interesting, to say the least. There's t1500 in the pot, and you've only got so much behind. I don't like the minbet, unless it's about trying to represent strength.

Real strength is betting out t700 on the turn, IMHO, and shoving the river.

durron597 · #5 08-08-2005, 12:06 AM

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Really interesting, to say the least. There's t1500 in the pot, and you've only got so much behind. I don't like the minbet, unless it's about trying to represent strength.

Real strength is betting out t700 on the turn, IMHO, and shoving the river.

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Would a King check the flop and bet 700 on the turn? Seriously? Look at stack sizes, too.

bluewilde · #6 08-08-2005, 12:41 AM

Yeah. Let's start at the beginnig. Your PF raise indicates strength. Villains PF call means...that villain called. Your checking on the flop doesn't mean weakness. Villain could easily think you have TP and that you wanted to CR the flush-draw. If he has a K, however, he can't check behind (again, flush draw). So we think villain doesn't have a K. Combined with PF action this means mid-premium PP or AQ/AJ (or villain is a jackass with 66 and we're drawing dead on the turn). These are the hands that beat us that we are trying to convince him to fold.

IMO, if you bet the turn strong it screams weakness. It's plugging your ears/covering your eyes and going "lalala I have chips go away."

1) Any significant strength you show on the turn commits the villain if he calls
2) Any significant bet says you can't beat three Ks and inclines CO to call with some of the PPs he might be holding

Maybe villain will pick up on the fact that a mid-low pocket pair would bet so anxiously (that is, making lastchance's recommended aggressive bet), and if he has AJ+ he may fold. But he won'd fold Qs and Js. IMO, making any move here is only good if it will convince villain to fold, not only his better aces, but PPs as well. The only way to show the strength that could convince these hands to fold is to be sneaky. If you don't think such an approach works because a) villain isn't sharp enough to notice or b) villain isn't strong enough to respond accordingly, then you're best off check/folding it down. Trying to bully him in a straightforward manner will tend to be called by weak hands that are still beating you. Villain is crippled if he folds, so if he has any reason to doubt the sincerity of a big turn raise, he will call. Still, villain is committed/done if he calls, so if he has any reason to doubt the sincerity of a meek turn/river combo, he will fold. It really depends on how well you know the guy. I never know my opponent well enough to do this, but Durron might, especially at a buy-in above the 10s (I don't know how the field is at the $16 turbos, but it might be strong enough for you to make solid evaluations of how a guy plays).

freemoney · #7 08-08-2005, 01:20 AM

i fold here 0% of the time with 88, i dont think you represent AK here at all all you seem to do is play off of what villian tells you- he checks flop so you bet a little on turn he jst calls so he has an ok but weak hand ill bet more on the river its not really indicative to a strong hand, i call with any pair everytime here.

NYCNative · #8 08-08-2005, 01:39 AM

I would never check that flop if I did have AK because of the flush draw and I wonder who would. I would have put you on a flush draw that missed with that line with a blocking turn bet and a looks-like-a-value-bet-steal on the river.

Daliman · #9 08-08-2005, 02:20 AM

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Really interesting, to say the least. There's t1500 in the pot, and you've only got so much behind. I don't like the minbet, unless it's about trying to represent strength.

Real strength is betting out t700 on the turn, IMHO, and shoving the river.

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Would a King check the flop and bet 700 on the turn? Seriously? Look at stack sizes, too.

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Only if it was smart.

Nottom · #10 08-08-2005, 02:46 AM

What hand are you representing? Its certainly not a K.

I guess I would think you have some sort of middling pair here.